2ndlook

Dravidian history no one talks about …

Posted in Current Affairs, European History, History, India, language, Media, politics by Anuraag Sanghi on April 6, 2009

Massive invasions and migrations even today, are fraught with risk. Why would people do that 5,000-10,000 years ago.

T

he Aryan Invasion Theory now has no legs to stand on. Bowing before the inevitable, Western historians, posing as ‘friends’ of India, have sneaked in something equally obnoxious.

Indian history as a negotiation

It is “The Dravidian Invasion Theory.We have a new situation now. The ‘deal’ seems to be - “We will agree to Aryan as Indians – but you have to agree that the Dravidians were the ‘actual’ invaders.” It was an alert 2ndlook reader  who pointed my nose to the Wikipedia entry under the heading of Out of India Theory.

If Dravidian migrated from Africa to India through the Middle East, it could have left traces in Egypt and countries under Egyptian influence as well, explaining the data which led earlier researchers to the thesis of a Dravidian ‘Indo-Mediterranean’ culture. (105) Sergent links Indian forms of phallus worship with Sahel-African, Ethiopian, Egyptian and Mediterranean varieties of the same. The Egyptian uraeus (‘cobra’), the snake symbol on the pharaonic regalia, has been linked in detail with Dravidian forms of snake worship, including a priest’s possession by the snake’s spirit. Dravidian cremation rituals for dead snakes recall the ceremonial burial of snakes in parts of Africa. (106) Others have added the similarity between the Dravidian naga-kal (Tamil: ‘snake-stone’, a rectangular stone featuring two snakes facing one another, their bodies intertwined) and the intertwined snakes in the caduceus, the Greek symbol of science and medicine. It has consequently been suggested that some Dravidian words may also have penetrated into the European languages. Thus, Dravidian kal, ‘stone’, resembles Latin calculus, ‘pebble’, and Dravidian malai, ‘mountain’, resembles an Albanian and Rumanian word mal, ‘rock, rocky riverside’. (107) But this hypothesis is a long shot and we need not pursue it here. Far more substantial is the Dravidian impact on another language family far removed from the recent Dravidian speech area, viz. Uralic. The influence pertains to a very sizable vocabulary, including core terms for hand, fire, house (Finnish kota, Tamil kudi), talk, cold, bathe, die, water, pure, see, knock, be mistaken, exit, fear, bright, behind, turn, sick, dirty, ant, strong, little, seed, cut, wait, tongue, laugh, moist, break, chest, tree; some pronouns, several numerals and dozens of terms for body parts. (108) But it goes deeper than that. Thus, both language families exclude voiced and aspirated consonants and all consonant clusters at the beginning of words. They have in common several suffixes, expressions and the phonological principle of vocalic harmony. As the Dravidian influence, like that of IE, is more pronounced in the Finno-Ugric than in the Samoyedic branch, we may surmise that the contact took place after the separation of the Samoyedic branch. But the main question here is how Dravidian could have influenced Uralic given their actual distance. (via Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate by Koenraad Elst).

Complicated Simplicity

Why can’t  Western historians get a simple idea in their head?

Aryans are from the land of Bharata-ah. Aryan culture is based on values – and not race and language. The single biggest differentiators, between Aryans and other cultures, is slavery. Under Aryadhwaja (the Aryan flag), rulers were expected (as spelt out in Arthashastra) to follow Aryan norms and practices – specially with regard to slavery. And there is no mention of an Aryan race or Aryan language! The Aryan Race is a piece of Western fiction – called history. There were and are, only Aryan values.

History would be a lot simpler – if simplicity is allowed to prevail. Massive invasions and migrations even today, are fraught with risk. Why would people do that 5,000-10,000 years ago. Dravidians are equally and fully Aryan, Mr.Elst. These games of Aryan /Dravidian are neither honest nor entertaining.

What is your motivation, Elst-bhai?

Hittite Kings – with Tamil names

Or is it that you can’t see beyond your nose, Mr.Elst?

Look at the interesting case of the (at least) three Hittite kings whose name is Mursili. Mursili  I (~1620-~1590; also spelled Mursilis). There is no Sanskritic meaning of this name – and most Hittite kings had Sanskritic names.

Based on presumptive vowels, the correct name would be Murasoli, which in modern Tamil means “giver of right and moral advice.” Murai means ‘approved code of conduct’ and soli is to ‘peel’; in Marathi ‘solna’ is peeling onions. An extant Tamil magazine calls itself, मुरासोली Murasoli - as also a politician who is known as Murasoli Maran. Mursili-I, (wife’s name Kali), the grandson and successor of the Hittite founder king Hattusili-I, also seemed to be the conscience keeper of the kingdom. Murslili I warned his administrators,

“‘You are about to go to the land, and the blood of the poor man you are not seeking!’

“His porters you do not question. You perform (the wish) of the rich man. You go to his house – you eat, you drink, and he rewards it to you. You take the poor man’s šiēt, (but) you do not investigate his case! Is it thusly that you hold the command of my father?” (KBo 22.1 rev. 34′-31′)

Hippodamia

Hippodamia wears a ‘pallu’

Similarly, the names of some other Hittite kings, like Hantilli and Muwatalli, have not been deciphered till now. These name-meanings will get cleared, if the Tamil meaning of thalli /talli as ‘mother-goddess’ is used. Muwatalli was possibly named after the patron goddess of horse breeding (in Telugu, mawu /mavu means horse and talli is mother-goddess).

Hantilli is possibly named after the Goddess Annapoorna. han = अन्न anna = grain and talli is mother. The word अन्न anna is common across many Indian languages. In Telugu अन्न is అన్నము meaning food or grain; in Tamil it is அன்னம். Remember that vowels in Akkadian, Sumerian, Babylonian languages are presumptive; both a and अः ah are vowels in most Indian languages, unlike most non-Indian languages.

But much before Hittites, is another interesting piece of history!

Clay tablets talk of how Sargon captured Khishibrasini, King of Elam” and his son Lukh’ish’an. (Shibirasini /Shivarasini and Lakshman?). Elam was a Dravidian culture and King Shibi is among the legendary kings in the lineage claimed by Chola kings, (Suryavanshi clan), and the Tamil name for Shibi Chakravarthi is Sembiyan and the Chola kings took this as one of their titles. Between 2000 BC to 1000 BC, about three kings were known as Ebarat (Bharat?). And before that, regents were known as Sukalmah (Sukarma?).

Wars and wagers

Which brings another interesting aspect of chariots in Greece.

The chariot was brought to Greece by Pelops (Pallava?) from Anatolia. Pelops had come from Paphlagonia – Pallava + gonia (gonia as a derivative of गृह्या, or gaanv, in modern Hindi).

He established himself – without a war, with a wager. He agreed to race against the ruler of Elis, Oenamaus, – who fancied his chances in a chariot. The reason for his confidence – a Hittite charioteer, Myrtilus (derived from Hittite name of Mursilis).

Hippodamia - Pelops wife seems to be wearing a sari (Image courtesy - http://www.pompeiiinpictures.eu). Click for a larger image.

Hippodamia – Pelops wife seems to be wearing a sari (Image courtesy – http://www.pompeiiinpictures.eu). Click for a larger image.

Olympics Games & Pallavas?

Pelops won the chariot race – and  Hippodamia, the king’s daughter.

A painting of Hippodamia, excavated in Pompei seems to showing her wearing a saree - and another line drawing seems to be showing her using a ‘pallu’ - use of the saree as a head-dress. It is after Pelops that the Pelopinissean plains are named.

Pelops went on to institute the first Olympic games!

Ophir

This was a famous city from which ancient Egypt, Babylon, Sumeria and other Middle East countries imported gold, sandalwood, ivory, gems, (wild animals and birds – peacocks, monkeys). This now seems to be a corruption of the Tamil kingdom of Oviyar.

Oviyar were one of the ruling tribes of South India and Sri Lanka. Ophir (as the Greeks called it and the West knows it) was a kingdom in South India and Lanka - a legend in its own time. Ships sailed from Sopara (modern Nallasoppara) and Lothal.

Elam – and world history

The people of Elam (yes in Tamil, Eelam means homeland), were the first to civilise the Iranian Peninsula in the 2700 BC period. They were contemporaries of the Egyptians, the Mittanis and the Hittites. The Elamites were a significant people till the 800 BC in Persia (modern day Iran). The Elam deity, Inshishunak, probably related to Sheshnag, is shown seated on a throne made up of coiled serpent. And if that was not enough, there are at least four kings named Shuqamuna – the last being King Shuqamuna in 986 BC. Accounting for presumptive vowels, spell it as Shaqamuni – or the more familiar name of Gautama Buddha, Shakyamuni. The Kassites also worshipped Shakyamuni.

Compared to the retributive and vengeful Hammurabi’s code, the Indic rulers of Middle East (the Hittites, Mittanis and Elamites) already had a more liberal and humane legal system. The Elamites were a significant people till the 800BC in Persia (modern day Iran). The Achaemenid Dynasty succeeded the Elamites (Dravidian Indians) in Iran – and the took over the Assyrian Empire. With the change in regime, came a change in the linguistic policy. Elamite-Dravidian language was replaced by Sanskritic-Old Persian.

Kannagi and Kovalan

Kannagi and Kovalan

The Persian linguistic makeover from the Dravidian-Elamite language to Sanskritic-Old Persian however did not change everything. The Elamite element in Zoroastrian revolt against the daiwas (devas), continues today in Elamite-Dravidian-Tamil Nadu, where asura kings like Ravana and Neduncheziyan are respected.

Silappadhikaaram – Nebuchadnezzar and justice

One of the most prominent rulers of Babylon was Nebuchadnezzar (as spelt in English). Replace ‘b’ with ‘d’ and you are very close the Tamil name of Neduncheziyan (Nedunchedianuru) – a current and modern Tamil name.

Interestingly, Neduncheziyan is more famous as the fabled erring Pandyan King in the Tamil classic – Silappadhikaaram. The earliest legend on justice in India is Silappathikaram (Tamil: சிலப்பதிகாரம்). Written by Ilango Adigal /Elangovadigal, supposed brother of Cheran Senguttavan. In the famous play, Silappadhikaaram, (also Silappatikaram) was about miscarriage of justice. The protagonist in the play is King Neduncheziyan.

Neduncheziyan’s mistaken justice, brings him grief and finally death. Neduncheziyan is overshadowed by the other King – Cheran Senguttuvan. It is believed this Tamil classic, written by Jain Saint, Ilangovadigal /Elangovadigal, was Cheran Senguttavan’s brother.

Kannagi - A Japanese anime character.

Kannagi – A Japanese anime character.

And Kannagi, the heroine of Silappadhikaaram, is a popular Japanese anime character – along with Muthu.

Nebuchadnezzar and Dravidians

There are at least four Nebuchadnezzars – but we are interested in two of them. The first was Nebuchadnezzar I (ca1126-ca1105) who invaded Elam (the Dravidian rulers of modern Iran). But it was Nebuchadnezzar II, who commissioned one of the wonders of the ancient world – The Hanging Gardens of Babylon – for Amytis, his homesick Elamite princess. Amytis, the daughter of the Median King, (a neo Elamite King), longed for the greenery of her homeland. A prominent ruler of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar-II, 605-562 BC, (as spelt in English) not only married an Elamite princess, but also took on an Elamite name (related to the Dravidian languages). Nebuchadnezzar III (Niditu-bel), who rebelled against Darius I of Persia in 522 BC and Nebuchadnezzar IV (Arakha), who rebelled against Darius I of Persia in 521 BC are the other two.

From India To Babylon and Russia

Post colonial historical revision is proposing new theories. New archaeological evidence supports history that shows Aryans moved from India to the Anatolian plains and established the Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Babylonian cultures of Elam, Mitannites, Kassites along modern Syria to Turkey. The Elamites, Mittanis, Hittites competed and traded with the Egyptians.

Usually, we look for Indian history in India. But there is an Indian history outside India, which show India as completely different that what we have always thought it to be – especially Dravidian history.

Colonial historians first split Indian history into Aryan and Dravidian history. Then dismissed Dravidian history as subordinate and lesser than Aryan on the basis of the Aryan Invasion Theory. Now that the Aryan Invasion /Migration Theory does not have a leg to stand on, the contribution by the Dravidians along the दक्षिणपथ dakshinapatha becomes more important to the West.

And it is this part of Indian (Dravidian) history, which the West is trying to usurp – having been forced to give up the Aryan Invasion /Migration Theory.

Along the Dakshinapatha दक्षिणपथ

The other part to Indian history – which today influences and touches half the world. This history is full of wealth, military successes and a spread which taken India deeper than any other civilisation in the world. While the previous history was along the उत्तरपथ uttarapath, this story lies along the दक्षिणपथ dakshinapatha.

Its starts at Kerala, a highway across Nagpur, Jhansi, Gwalior, Delhi, Kashmir and ends in modern Iran. This history and geography is loosely dominated by the Dravidian segment of India.

There is (at least) 3000 year old history that Tamil language has, which makes it one the oldest, living language. Of course, the division between Aryan and Dravidian history is a Western creation. Arya was never around race, religion or language. It was about values. Noble values.

Languages related to Tamil and Dravidian linguistics are in use even today in Pakistan, where the Brahui tribe speaks a related version of the Tamil language. The Brahuis have marriage preferences which are similar to South Indians (cousins preferred in marriage) – rather than North Indians.

The Dating Imbroglio

Historical dating till the 1960’s was based on a matrix of archaeology, books, records, events, cross-indexing, astronomy. In most cases, all these factors were NOT present, resulting in a significant element of guess – work – and a major element of vested interests.

The two point agenda was the maintenance of the Greek Miracle – motivated by desire to use history as a colonial and exploitative tool. And the other item on the agenda was the proving of the ‘correctness’ of Biblical events – which was motivated by a racial agenda to prove Western racial superiority.

Modern history, is now caught between the Greek Miracle History School, which has stuck to the Sumer->Turkey->Egypt->Greece->Rome->Europe–>West-Is-The-Greatest Axis and the Velikovsky School which is stuck to proving that the Bible is indeed the Last & Only Word.

In 1960s, came new tools to assist archaeological dating system – the the Carbon-14 and the Bristlecone Pine tree-ring system – as well as others. Even this has been been distorted by calibrations, aberrant data and acceptable readings – all the time maintaining a veneer of secular and objective history. Traditional Western historians from both the schools dont want to change – as whole libraries of history based on theories of Western superiority will become redundant.

We cannot have that, can we?


51 Responses

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  1. Raman said, on April 7, 2009 at 6:01 am

    Interesting as usual. but that particular link u gave — regarding the tamil origins of ophir — was to put it mildly terrible and detracts from the scholarly nature of ur article. Since the time this aryan / dravidian conflict theory came about (which has no basis either in sanskrit literature or, interestingly, in tamil literature) a whole generation of pseudo-historians have sprung up in Tamil Nadu (supported by the dravidian political parties) whose favorite pastime is dreaming up more and more glorified, fantasy accounts of tamil history. this particular person, whose link u have put, appears to be one of these.

    • husayn said, on December 16, 2010 at 10:40 am

      what this man says is true

    • husayn said, on December 17, 2010 at 10:31 am

      elamites were not a aryan race! not at all what ever is said about the dravidians being from elamites is100% the people who say this is right only thing is it is very hard for some people to imagine a dark people can be from shem! the elamites were dark skinned and not a white race neither semitic read what i have dreamed about it matches much of what they say about the dravidians being from elamites their travel pattern to get to india was south iran this is where the elamites lived not sumerians the elamites were a significant people just as the dravidian race they mixed with the faris people during that time and kassites before and thousands of yrs later the brahui dravidians are doing same !

      • husayn said, on March 19, 2014 at 6:19 pm

        Actually it has been a while but now I see the dravidians are the sumerians and the other branch of them are the phoenicians . I will post more on this therr sre 3 nimrods one of them was nimrod bin cush bin canaan bin ham yes the dravidians ,the oyher two are nimtod bin arfakhshaad and thr 3rd is nimrod bin cush bin ham .indeed thr dumeruans anf dravidians are canaanites and most likely mixed with the elamites

  2. Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 7, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Raman – Thanks for your comments, compliments and the participation.

    pseudo-historians have sprung up in Tamil Nadu (supported by the dravidian political parties)

    Modern History, a Western invention, as we know it today, is State supported. Western historians gloss over the State support. Hegel was the father of modern Western history and Max Muller, one of his many illegitimate ‘ideological’ children.
    Max Muller was a paid by the English East India Company (EEIC). The EEIC had clear agenda of Christian proselytization, Dominance of Western Race and of course, economic exploitation. Western history, that we talk about, is finally the outcome of this agenda. Similarly, I have experienced in the erstwhile State of Hyderabad, another version of history, which too was State supported.
    To allege State Support only against ‘pseudo-historians’ of Tamil Nadu is unfair. There is a vast and rich Indian narrative of achievements, in which Dravidians have contributed significantly. The Aryan North versus the Dravidian South is a modern, sterile and artificial creation, which blinds us.

    favorite pastime is dreaming up more and more glorified, fantasy accounts of tamil history

    One has only to travel to parts of South East Asia to see the reality of this ‘glorified, fantasy accounts of tamil history’. If we are not too careful, we may find out that the West will again usurp our Dravidian past – like they have, our Aryan past for the last 200 years.

  3. Eric Doodah said, on April 9, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    Velikovsky did not try to prove that the bible was true, and rejected fundamentalism. He did use the Bible, and other historical sources, as evidence of ancient catastrophes, which is not the same thing. See “Fundamentalism” at the Velikovsky Encyclopedia

  4. Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 10, 2009 at 7:37 am

    I didn’t see Velikovsky use Persian texts, Koran, Chinese sources, Buddhist scriptures, Zend Avestha or the largest body of ancient writing in the world, which is the Indic books.

    Apart from stray references, that is.

    A clear, narrow focus of authenticating the Bible as historical source is a credible academic exercize – and is OK in my view.

    However, if the Velikovsky School had /has global pretensions, they should shed those – pronto.

  5. E Gibbon said, on April 22, 2009 at 10:24 am

    A SUN WORSHIPPING PHOENICIAN PRIEST FROM SYRIA WITH CHARIOT, DANCING WITH DRUMS, AND A NAGA-KAL BECOMES EMPEROR IN ROME

    Elagabalus (c. 203 – March 11, 222), also known as Heliogabalus or Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, was a Roman Emperor of the Severan dynasty who reigned from 218 to 222. Born Varius Avitus Bassianus, he was a Phoenician by birth, the son of Julia Soaemias and Sextus Varius Marcellus, and in his early youth he served as a priest of the god El-Gabal at his hometown, Emesa.

    In 217, the emperor Caracalla was murdered and replaced by his Praetorian prefect, Marcus Opellius Macrinus. Caracalla’s maternal aunt, Julia Maesa, successfully instigated a revolt among the Third Legion to have her eldest grandson, Elagabalus, declared as emperor in his place. Macrinus was defeated on June 8, 218, at the Battle of Antioch, upon which Elagabalus, barely fourteen years old, ascended to the imperial power and began a reign that was marred by controversies.

    During his rule, Elagabalus showed a disregard for Roman religious traditions and sexual taboos. He was married as many as five times and is reported to have prostituted himself in the imperial palace. Elagabalus replaced Jupiter, head of the Roman pantheon, with a new god, Deus Sol Invictus, and forced leading members of Rome’s government to participate in religious rites celebrating this deity, which he personally led.

    Elagabalus developed a reputation among his contemporaries for eccentricity, decadence, and zealotry which was likely exaggerated by his successors and political rivals. This propaganda was passed on and, as a result, he was one of the most reviled Roman emperors to early historians. For example, Edward Gibbon wrote that Elagabalus “abandoned himself to the grossest pleasures and ungoverned fury.”[2] “The name Elagabalus is branded in history above all others” because of his “unspeakably disgusting life,” wrote B.G. Niebuhr.[3]

    The relationships between Julia Maesa, Julia Soaemias, and Elagabalus were strong, at first. His mother and grandmother became the first women to be allowed into the Senate,[28] and both received Senatorial titles: Soaemias the established title of Clarissima and Maesa the more unorthodox Mater Castrorum et Senatus.[18] While Julia Maesa tried to position herself as the power behind the throne and subsequently the most powerful woman in the world, Elagabalus would prove to be highly independent, set in his ways, and impossible to control.

    Historiography

    The Roses of Heliogabalus, Lawrence Alma-Tadema, 1888

    A propaganda campaign against Elagabalus, traditionally attributed to Julia Avitus Mamaea, was instituted after his death.[44] Many denigrating and false stories were circulated about him, and his eccentricities may have been exaggerated.[44] The most famous among these, immortalized in the 19th-century painting The Roses of Heliogabalus, is that he smothered guests at a dinner to death with a mass of “violets and other flowers” dropped from above.[45]

    Augustan History

    The source of many of these stories of Elagabalus’s debauchery is the Augustan History (Historia Augusta), which scholarly consensus now feels to be unreliable in its details.[46] The Historia Augusta was most likely written near the end of the 4th century during the reign of emperor Theodosius I,[47] drawing as much upon the invention of its author as actual historical sources. The life of Elagabalus as described in the Augustan History is believed to be largely a work of historical fiction.[48] Only the sections 13 to 17, relating to the fall of Elagabalus, are considered to hold any historical value.[49]

    Cassius Dio

    Sources more credible than the Augustan History include the contemporary historians Cassius Dio and Herodian. Cassius Dio lived from the second half of the 2nd century until sometime after 229. Born into a patrician family, he spent the greater part of his life in public service. He was a senator under emperor Commodus and governor of Smyrna after the death of Septimius Severus. Afterwards he served as suffect consul around 205, and as proconsul in Africa and Pannonia. Alexander Severus held him in the highest esteem and made him his consul again. His Roman History spans nearly a millennium, from the arrival of Aeneas in Italy until the year 229. As a contemporary of Elagabalus, Cassius Dio’s account of his reign is generally considered more reliable than the Augustan History, although it should be noted that Dio spent the larger part of this period outside of Rome and had to rely on second-hand accounts when composing his Roman History. Furthermore, the political climate in the aftermath of Elagabalus’ reign, as well as his own position within the government of Alexander likely imposed restrictions on the extent to which his writing on this period is truthful.[50]

    Herodian
    Medal of Elagabalus, Louvre Museum.

    Another contemporary of Elagabalus was Herodian, who was a minor Roman civil servant who lived from c. 170 until 240. His work, History of the Roman Empire since Marcus Aurelius, commonly abbreviated as Roman History, is an eye-witness account of the reign of Commodus until the beginning of the reign of Gordian III. His work largely overlaps with Dio’s own Roman History, but both texts seem to be independently consistent with each other.[51] Although Herodian is not deemed as reliable as Cassius Dio, his lack of literary and scholarly pretensions make him less biased than senatorial historians. Herodian is considered the most important source on the religious reforms which took place during the reign of Elagabalus, which have been confirmed by modern numismatical[52][53] and archaeological evidence.[54]

  6. Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 27, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    What Gibbon did not add are the following: –

    1. Elagabalus /Heliogabalus – possibly is derived from Tamil – Alaga is beautiful and balu is boy. So, how did Elagabalus, a Phoenician use a Tamil name and ruled over the Roman Empire?
    2. Phoenicians were known in antiquity as Cananites – and Phoenicians was name given to the Cannanites by the Greeks. The Hebrew word kena’ani (‘Canaanite’) came to have the secondary meaning of “merchant”.
    3. Where in the world would you find Canaan – possibly in Tamil Nadu, where Kannan deva is worshipped!
    4. Who was the most famous Phoenician chronicler – Sanchoniathon! And where in the world would you find a name like Sanchinath!
    5. Cadmus (a Phoenician) is credited with having introduced writing to the Greeks. And what was used by Cadmus – palm leaves. The only people and place where palm leaves were used extensively for writing was India – specifically, more popular in South India.
    6. Buddhist Scholars have long argued that Cadmus-> Cadmo-> Gothama is the etymology of Cadmus – and Cadmus was a Buddhist teacher in Greece.
    7. A Phoenician Queen committed sati – burnt herself at the funeral pyre. It was Indian women who would committ Sati – instead of becoming slaves. The colonial representation of Sati were false propaganda – which forgot that Indians were the largest numbers of slaves who were captured and sent to Central Asia in Medieval Times by Islamic raiders. Central Asians raiders came to India – to loot gold – and Indians slaves.
    8. Hannibal was a Phoenician from Carthage (which was Phoenician city). Was Hannibal supplied elephants by Indic kings to take on the most significant ‘asura-slave’ society of that time. Similar to the Indic support to Persians?
    9.The Land of Ophir, mentioned in the Bible was proably Oviyarnadu – which is the modern SE Coast of India (Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Srilanka).
    10. Indians were the first to use vowels – and till the Phoenicians introduced vowels to many languages in the world, languages like Akkadian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian used only consonants. So, many modern languages owe a debt to the Phoenicians.
    11. The SE Coast of India was also a major ship building centre till the early 19th century. So, Phoenicians ships may have well used Indian Teak, which was considered the best for ships, till the use of iron started for ship building.
    12. The well known deites of the Cannanites /Phoenicians were Molokh and Baal – which seem to be interestingly similar to Bala-Muruga, a favorite god by the Tamilians – 4000 years later also.
    13. I reproduce below from a website dedicated to Phoenician study: –

    (Start of extract)

    There is a controversial study by Rajeswar Gupta is published in full as originally translated from Bengali in 1902. It is based on the ancient Rig Veda and puts forth the following suggestions regarding the origin of the Phoenicians:

    A great war broke out in the remote old days (maybe 10,000 B.C.) between the Indian Aryans and the Phoenicians in which the latter were defeated and compelled to leave wholly or partially the land of the Aryans.
    The Phoenicians were the first of the civilized nations of the world. The civilization of Assyria, Babylonia, Egypt, Greece and other ancient countries owed its origin to the union of the civilization of the Aryans with that of the Phoenicians.
    The Phoenicians originally lived in some part of India, whence driven out they migrated gradually westwards. While still residing in the neighborhood of India they colonized and traded with Arabia and the countries bordering on the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.
    The Phoenicians had colonies in many countries from each of which they were driven away by the natives after severe struggles. In this way they were expelled from India, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, or they mixed with the natives when they lost their supremacy in those countries.
    In ancient time the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea were connected together by a strait through which the Phoenician and Aryan trading ships entered the Mediterranean Sea and Indian goods were taken to Europe. As that passage gradually silted up the connection between India and Europe broke off.

    It must be noted that historians and archaeologist do theorize about supposed various origins of the Phoenicians with little hard evidence and one is left with nothing more than mere hypotheses

    (End of extract).

    • husayn said, on December 17, 2010 at 10:34 am

      The Phoenicians traded with south india this known

      • dgf said, on January 19, 2011 at 1:01 am

        It’s time to put down the hashish pipe and rejoin reality my friend. Indian traders were well-known in the Middle East and Iran. See the Mitanni.

  7. levuka said, on June 28, 2009 at 9:36 am

    The test of these interesting ideas may come with gene maps of India. See http://www.dnatribes.com which (based on a a limited sample gives per cent of genes for various parts of India as a percentage mix of Southern African, West African, East African, North India, South India, Eastern India, Altaian (continental Asia-Russia), Arabian, Mestizo, Mesopotamian, Tibetan and Other.)

    Such gene maps have solved Pacific arguments – for example – early gene maps now show a 3500 year-old path from south China, with an admixture of Melenesian, on the way to the central Pacific islands. In the metal-free and protein-short islands, a pattern of cannibalism evolved, and Polynesians peoples evolved (in isolation) into large, strong, aggressive, analytical peoples with an indo-pacific language, linked to Malay and Indonesian languages. The arrival of hordes of Europeans with metal and guns – and the opening of the Suez canal – combined with new diseases – took about 200 years to decimate Pacific cultures.

    In Samoa, for example – people look a bit Tibetan. It’s because the underlying gene set has ‘Chinese’ genes in it. But to aid your case for Indian supremacy as a core culture – the name of the Sun “Ra” in New Zealand – a country invaded by the cannibals of the Pacific – is the same as the Egyptian “Ra”. And (!) In Sanskrit RA is the acoustic root of fire. RA also connotes with light.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on July 4, 2009 at 9:10 am

      The test of these interesting ideas may come with gene maps of India. See http://www.dnatribes.com which (based on a a limited sample gives per cent of genes for various parts of India as a percentage mix of Southern African, West African, East African, North India, South India, Eastern India, Altaian (continental Asia-Russia), Arabian, Mestizo, Mesopotamian, Tibetan and Other).

      Levuka – The DNA as a ethnic marker needs a lot more study – with a lot less agenda and politics, to become reliable.

      You are aware of the Bamshad et al study on the Indian genetic make up, that set out to prove that the Aryan Invasion Theory was true. The Bamshad study was significantly disputed by other studies by Sanghamitra Sahoo et al and Analabha Basu et al.

      I would also urge you to consider how Western historians have resisting revised dating of the Egyptian – based on radio carbon dating.

      Anyway to get some sense of reality, we would need inputs from multiple sources to construct a ‘realistic’ model.

      Such gene maps have solved Pacific arguments – for example – early gene maps now show a 3500 year-old path from south China, with an admixture of Melenesian, on the way to the central Pacific islands. In the metal-free and protein-short islands, a pattern of cannibalism evolved, and Polynesians peoples evolved (in isolation) into large, strong, aggressive, analytical peoples with an indo-pacific language, linked to Malay and Indonesian languages. The arrival of hordes of Europeans with metal and guns – and the opening of the Suez canal – combined with new diseases – took about 200 years to decimate Pacific cultures.

      You have just proved my above point.

      This business that Native Tribes in Pacific islands, North America, Australia were wiped out to a convenient raft of diseases is very pithy – and weak. Human beings do develop resistance and immunity to diseases.

      It just begs one question.

      Just how come, this decimation happened only in the Anglo Saxon colonies? How come no other ethnic group in the world became extinct in this manner and scale?

      No Siree. This decimation had nothing to do with DNA, genetic make up, diet, environment. It was cold, calculated and systematic annihilation – which Hitler tried to do in a few short years, unsuccessfully.

      But to aid your case for Indian supremacy as a core culture

      My case for ‘Indian supremacy’!!

      It has a very delicious sense of imputation. I have not implied any such ‘superiority’.

      What I am doing is pointing out are some deliberate attempts – aided by probably some level of ignorance, within the media and academia, about Indian contributions in the history of various nations.

  8. David said, on September 24, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    Nebuchadnezzar II and all the other Babylonian kings were from the Chaldean dynasty .it is known that Chaldeans spoke a version of the Aramic language.

    Aramic has been the language of administration of empires and the language of divine worship. It was the day-to-day language of Israel in the Second Temple period (539 BCE – 70 CE), the original language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, likely to have been the mother tongue of Jesus of Nazareth and is the main language of the Talmud .

    Obviously the names must be Chaldean (Chaldean Aramic) .

    ——————————————————————————————-

    Phoenician sarcophagus were excavated , a testimonial to the fact that Phoenicians buried their dead in stone coffins.

  9. Anuraag Sanghi said, on September 25, 2009 at 8:31 am

    Well! David –

    Much like modern India, the West Asian region till the advent of the Desert Bloc supremacy, was a linguistic melting pot. There are hundreds of King names which can be derived from Indic languages. By some clever colonial dating tricks (which are being unravelled now), the evolution of West Asian languages has been distorted.

    Your logic is a non-sequitur. Your own name is evidence of the logic. While you say you are an Indian Christian, your name cannot be attributed to any Indian language or dialect (by current linguistic research at least). Does the fact that your name is not Indian makes you any less Indian? Or vice versa!

    You can look at: –

    1. The suppression of the Pistis Sophia or the heresies of Origen et al to see how the Church has distorted the actual evolution of Christianity.

    2. Similarly the persecution of Mani’s followers will give you some ideas.

    3. Or the post-Hussite persecution of the Roma Gypsies.

    Needless to say all these topics are well covered in various other posts – with exhaustive links which support, dispute or add to my post.

  10. Somsuj said, on December 6, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    Very well written hotchpotch – even worse are the responses.

    You say :

    1. Elagabalus /Heliogabalus – possibly is derived from Tamil – Alaga is beautiful and balu is boy. So, how did Elagabalus, a Phoenician use a Tamil name and ruled over the Roman Empire?

    So, in the first sentence, the name ‘possibly’ is derived from Tamil – and in the second sentence, no doubt remains and you ask how a Phoenician uses a Tamil name ?

    What kind of logic is this ?

    I am sorry – I cannot find any logic behind your ideas

    • samadhyayi said, on April 15, 2011 at 5:18 pm

      that ‘indian tamil’ guy’s comment seems to have the answer . phoenicians being related to tamils. you know i have seen that movie australia. that aboriginee grandfather . u would think he is tamilian . arent the aboriginees supposed to be phoenicians . any way read below comment.

  11. aravind kumar said, on April 6, 2010 at 6:42 am

    sir
    i would like to the commonness in Dravidian culture among the major language groups.
    aravind kumar
    dravidian University
    kuppam-517425

  12. husayn said, on December 16, 2010 at 10:43 am

    first off on a spiritual side i have dreamt of Prophet Muhammad more than 8times the last time was in the dream i am being told i am not from the family of the Prophet PBH and he is standing on the left of me and i ask him what about the indian people he just had a big smile on his face this is what made made interested in our background!i will jump to some of my most recent dreams the first one i had was i dreamt of a explanation of the dravidians in dream it said hamitic in type with straight hair and were also from egypt after this dream i dreamt of the fertlile crescent in syria and it is showing the dravidians came from the fertile crescent in syria close to the sea and weird thing i read a article on the brahui dravidians they claim they are from aleppo i looked this up and indeed aleppo is by the sea and in syria 1 or 2 days after this i dreamt of the dravidians coming out of upper egypt not ethiopia i sea map it was not the eastern coast but upper egypt i see a arrow showing the direction of travel into syria and i see arrows going east through the middle east through south iran into northwest india and indeed the elamites were all in southern iran not the sumerians and this is the direction of travel of the dravidians . long time before this i dreamt dark people entering india through northwest then also settling in bangladesh and then tamil nadu, also i have dreamt of different hamitic races and ones with straight hair looking like arabs and brown indians with straight hair very different then the other negroid types of africa also i dreamt of some ethiopians and somalians like us same fine features straight hair looking like brown indians. also i dreamt of egypt i see egypt in the dream and i am being told our family is from afro arabian people!weird and the elamites were a middle eastern hamitic race and they are also are from shem through his son elam hence the name elamite arabian is meaning from shem but elamites did not have a semitic culture or language also i dreamt of myself in iraq i see all of iraq and iran and in dream it is saying the faris races of iraq and iran are same as people of the gulf well i came across something after i dreamt this our sunni imam says on a tradition that lud son of shem married shakbah daughter of japheth and the faris race comes from them lud was also the fore father of the amalikites the canaanites the people of oman the gulf egypt hijaz this is in wikipedia! and before this i dreamt of lud and his wife and i in dream it is saying we are not semitic and then i am holding lud in my arms like a baby and what imam tabari said is true because the faris is not semitic and also come from him also i dreamt of a fair lady and in dream it is saying the people of gulf and iran are from her and also saying the indians are from the middle east but from someone else an in fact they are from the scythians who are from magog son of japheth. our feature are found in yemen and arabia also i dreamt of a man wearing a turban clean shaved and telling me we are from yemen also our type of prople are found there in egypt and in yemen the majority of our race came out from egypt with a smaller amount remaing in egypt from there they migrated to ethiopia and somalia out feature are not found in south africa. it is egypt we came from! also our features are very different than the aborigines of australia the nose is different dravidians have finer features they are a unique hamitic race and also come from shem

  13. husayn said, on March 2, 2011 at 10:23 am

    sumerians were not indo aryan

  14. Indian tamil said, on April 1, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    First “murasoli” in tamil means sound emanating from drum. “murasu” means drum and “oli” means sound

    tamil is one of the oldest continuing languages has protected many features of harappans whom were the cousins of sumerians

    also one sections of tamils were prominent sea traders, Phoenicians would have related to the tamils in far ancient times, and their descedants of present generations just forgot that.

    phoenician words such as am(water) , bet(house –>tamil, vetu) related to tamil words

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 23, 2011 at 7:13 am

      Indian Tamil –
      I have given dictionary links for the derivation
      of Murasoli. Your suggestion indicates that Murasoli has more than one meaning.

      Of the two meanings, as per you, which is more relevant in a king-name?

      • KUMAR IYER said, on August 8, 2012 at 5:55 am

        I tend to agree with Indian Tamil on the definition of Murasoli+ sound of drumbeat

  15. samadhyayi said, on April 21, 2011 at 5:55 am

    have u guys seen that movie ‘dashavataram’. that initial episode of shaivites vs vaishnavites was a total unnecessity for the plot of the movie but it was put in the movie with considerable amount of money. WHY?
    this is nothing but kamal hasan currying karuna nidhi’s favor by fuelling more propoganda of the aryan dravidan conflict and hinduism. this movie i have read is the highest grossing movie in indian movie history. the damage has been done. now no matter how strong the evidence is . the people are thinking that shaivites and vaishnavites fought bloodily and that hinduism is like other religions. no matter how hard we try to explain the impression caused by the visuals of that movie seem to take the upper hand. what will the casual listener care about our reference to vishnasya hrudyam shiva. shivasya hrudyam vishnu . etc etc. if i see Kamal Hasan in person sometime i will give him a piece of my mind. (what could i possibly do? what would u do?). now the pakistanis, indian muslims, christians everybody seem to be drawing their conclusions about hinduism from that movie.

  16. samadhyayi said, on April 21, 2011 at 6:02 am

    will somebody tell me in one word.
    are there really two groups known as aryans and dravidians. are tamilians dravidians and the rest of us aryans. even Jaggi Vasudev Ji seems to think that there are aryans and dravidians and that dravidians were shaivites and aryans were something else. Vivekananda also said something about vanaras being original inhabitants of india. so what to make of all of this.

  17. Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 21, 2011 at 7:44 am

    Indian Tamil –

    I have given dictionary links for the derivation
    of Murasoli. Your suggestion indicates that Murasoli has more than one meaning.

    What, as per you is the more relevant meaning in a king-name?

  18. Internet_Hindus said, on April 21, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    Great job Anurag. First of all let me declare that I am an Out of India believer and have always done so unknowingly even when my class teachers taught me about some nomadic tribe coming from europe and writing Vedas.
    Now, for the sake of discussion and correctness of the above cited hypothesis I need to ask one query. Would it not be possible that the Greek, Sumerian, Egyptian kingdoms and their kings that you mention might have been just inspired by Indian greatness and its composition and proponents of Dharma?. In the same scenario the world would have looked up to this country and would have imitated some names in their languages. As an example in modern times, I have noticed the inclusion of Alexander in Chanakya as “Alakshendra” in hindi. So cant people then have just borrowed names like that due to traders and knowledge transfers across kingdoms.
    I have always felt that Linguistics and Linguists are the biggest culprits in modelling Indian history. By the way my personal discussions with Koenraad Elst also points truth in the observation that Anurag has made. However, he is an honest man who has great pride for this country. No motives behind those theories for sure.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 22, 2011 at 7:57 pm

      Now, for the sake of discussion and correctness of the above cited hypothesis I need to ask one query. Would it not be possible that the Greek, Sumerian, Egyptian kingdoms and their kings that you mention might have been just inspired by Indian greatness and its composition and proponents of Dharma?

      Completely true – not just possible or probable. You can read more at
      1. 3 That Changed History – The Amarna Letters http://goo.gl/2CBi3

      2.3 That Changed The World – Boghazkoi Clay Tablets http://goo.gl/pi3em

      3. 3 Battles That Changed World History – And India http://goo.gl/wk2qd

      the inclusion of Alexander in Chanakya as “Alakshendra” in hindi. So cant people then have just borrowed names like that due to traders and knowledge transfers across kingdoms.

      The Aliksundar references I have seen are basically Indian attempts to present a vernacular version of Western historical narrative. On Alexander’s ‘conquest’, you read more at

      http://goo.gl/I1zqH

  19. levuka said, on April 21, 2011 at 11:47 pm

    Here’s a little factoid to add to the mill:
    Kathryn SIM, Desert Traveler, the Life of Jean Louis Burckhardt, Gollanz, 1969 P. 107

    ..”500 elephants were sent to Selacus Nicator on the the ceding of the Macedonian-held territory in Afghanistan, by King Chandragupta in 302 BC…”. These came “through the passes of Baluchistan, across Persia and Mesopotamia”, to the valley which housed the Seleucid city of Apamea.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 22, 2011 at 7:14 pm

      This transaction of 500-elephants-for-territory is very interesting for more than one reason – which I had linked in some of my posts.

      1. These 500 elephants were the decisive factor in the Daidochi Wars after Alexander’s death. Especially at the Battle of Ipsus.

      2.Pyrrhus and Hannibal used the experience at Ipsus against Rome.

      3. Now if Roman armies could be frightened by 20 elephants of Pyrrhus, or Hannibal’s 37, what happened to Alexander’s troops, when faced with 100s, if not 1000s of elephants, which were common in Indian armies.

      4. To put that in perspective, Chandragupta Maurya had thousands of war elephants. Figures range between 5,000 to 9,000. And how many elephants did Porus’ army have? 200 elephants is the estimate, by Greek hagiographers.

      5. Seleucos’ elephants corps were headquartered at Apamea – a city named after Seleucos’ Bactrian wife Apama; daughter of Spitamenes.

      6. Seleucos’ elephants corps were handled by Indian mahavats. Romans mounted a secret offensive mission. Romans, in 163 BC. A Roman contingent went into Laodicea, Syria, to neutralize this elephant unit.

      7. War elephants were an Indian monopoly for most of history.

      8. The Greek story about Alexander’s soldiers neutralizing Porus’ war elephants corps was created possibly to impress Alexander’s Levantine satraps – evidenced by the Alexander’s /Ptolemy’s elephant-coins – mostly discovered in the Mesopotamia region.

      9. The bigger questions relate to chronology in Indian history. The Sandrocottus in Greek accounts has been taken to mean Chandragupta.

      10. There are many Chandraguptas in Indian history. Western historians decided that Chandragupta Maurya would fit the bill best – for Western historical agenda.

      11. To my mind, this wrongly compresses 800 years of Indian history into a ‘convenient’ chronology.

      12. This 500 elephants transaction is one such event – which raises some very interesting questions.

  20. senthil said, on May 22, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    Anurag,

    Are you saying, that elam people from present srilanka, migrated to Iran and created a civilization? Or is it vice versa?

    In any case, the first question i face is that where is the excavations in elam? So as for the Horse, which people ask, there is no horse fossil in india with date older than the fossil at central asia..

    How do we respond to such questions..

    For eg, in case of greek civilization, the temples and pyramids are dated as 3000 BC, for which people say there was no corresponding remains in india with such older dates.. so they say, the greeks were advanced and we got their temple architecture later..

    Is there any answer to such questions? I hope, i have conveyed my point..

  21. Hitesh Kumar said, on August 5, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    He expressed his views strongly for reform in Hinduism in order to superimpose view Christianity on former. He supported Brahmo Samaj movement. He believes that Brahmo Samja will engender an Indian form ‘Christianity’ and Indian were practice Christianity without being Roman Catholic , Anglicans or Lutherans.”In the Lutheran tradition, he hoped that the superstition and “idolatry” which he considered to be characteristic of modern popular Hinduism would disappear.

  22. Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 8, 2012 at 9:56 am

  23. Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 8, 2012 at 10:13 am

  24. Gulamemustafa Shaikh said, on September 15, 2012 at 12:19 am

    I always thought what you have written here. I felt that an Aryan invasion was not possible because north west India was always populated by warrior tribes of Rajputs and others. Even Alexander could not cross over into India then how could the sage minded Aryans do that. There were two great events which sent out large masses out of India; One was the drying of the Saraswati River and second was the Mahabharata war. I am very much sure for myself that those who proceeded westwards are the Mittanies, the Babylonians, the Elamites of Iran and the Sabeans and Nabataeans mentioned in history.

    The Mittanies might have partly dissolved into the local population and partly come back to India via the Arabian sea. Same with the others. We have ample archaeological proof for all this. However in the Middle East mainly in Saudi Arabia and certain other countries it is the practice of governments to destroy historical finds by pulverizing them in machines at these cultures are against idol worship and do not want to own up any connections to Indic origins.

    A very well researched and written article this. I wonder why the historians of India do not write some books on this for our school students who are not aware of these things.

  25. Mulik said, on December 11, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Nice study,,,,, what is your name?

  26. Suren said, on March 27, 2013 at 6:20 pm

    Elam means homeland? LOL. Another fake theory.

    To begin with the Elamo-Dravidian theory has been rejected by most scholars.

    As for Elam meaning homeland, is pure nonsense and a typical example of pseudo scholars making directly false and erronous theories.

    The Tamil word Eelam, is a completely different word than Elam.
    1. The ‘E’ in Elam is pronounced as the E in Egg while the ‘E’ in the Tamil word Eelam/Ilam is pronounced as in eel.
    2. The ‘L’ in Elam is the normal L, while the ‘L’ in the Tamil word Eelam is a retroflex. It is more of an R than an L, and many linguists call it an R and write it as r with 2 dots under, or r inverted. Also writen as ‘zh’ (Eezham). It sounds like a combination of R and Z.

    Eelam/Ilam (இலம்) does not mean homeland in Tamil, but poverty.

    http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:1272.tamillex

    And Eelam/Ilam (ஈழம்) means Sinhala (country), gold or toddy and not homeland.

    http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:2326.tamillex

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on March 27, 2013 at 11:32 pm

      A big difference between scholar and blogger. Any scholarly allusions are yours – not mine.

      Tamil history and language are both complex subjects. Hence, etymology of any word will need deep, intimate study – which I do not claim or have.

      Coming to Eelam -

      1. The meaning of the word eelam as country, nation, region can be gauged by one the links provided by you.

      Lanka was an early pioneer in asuric statecraft – which probably travelled from Lanka to the Assyrian regions. Therefore, for these people to also call their new land as Eelam would not surprise me.

      If you investigate closely, in the same dictionary, it appears that some toddy tappers from Lanka (Eelam) emigrated to Tamil Nadu – and the country name (Eelam), tribal name (Eelam) and their output, toddy also became Eelam.

      2. Three other related words may again further bolster my interpretation.

      3. For pre-Buddha India, modern history has little to offer. So, we may need to fall back on classical Indian historiography – which operates by different rules and standards.

      Lastly two other points need to be marshaled here.

      1. One – Elamite languages used only consonants – and therefore all vowels are modern assumptions. So, your attempts to relate modern Tamil vowels to ancient Elamite words is without merit or context.
      2. Two – Few of the Elamite kings called themselves as Bharat (modern history calls them Ebarat, Barat, etc). In case you don’t know the relevance of this ‘coincidence’, I will leave you to do some Google-work on that.

      I must also add that in Vedic /Pauranik geography, Ila region was called Ilavarta. This region presumably covered West Asia and parts of Central Asia. In Latin, the Arabian region was known as illam.

      Some translation of the world Ila conclude that the Ila is also used as synonym for homeland. Take this shloka for instance, from the Rigveda.

      १३१.इळा सरस्वती मही तिस्रो देवीर्मयोभुवः । बर्हिः सीदन्त्वस्रिधः॥९॥

      मातृभूमि, मातृसंस्कृति और मातृभाषा—ये तीनों सुखद होती हैं। (from Wikipedia).

      Alt translation:

      इळा सरस्वती और मही ये तीनो देवियाँ सुखकारी और क्षयरहित है! ये तीनो बिछे हुए दीप्तिमान कुश के आसनो पर विराजमान् हों॥९॥ (from here).

      • Suren said, on March 29, 2013 at 2:06 am

        Hi Anuraag, :)

        Thanks for your quick reply. But u didn’t get the point and your whole theory is flawed and full of contradictions, in addition you are moving people across continents and millenia like pieces in a chess board, which obviously clashes with chronology.

        Anyway, the point is that these two words i.e Elam and Eezham are two completely different words. When written using the English alphabet they look alike, but they are pronounced completely different, and it is you who is trying to relate these two words and not me. The Tamils claim that the word Eezham/Eelam ஈழம் is very ancient and the L in it, is a peculiar Dravidian sound, and is claimed to be retained only in Tamil and Malayalam. So there’s nothing modern about it. Moreover It is you yourself who say that the Elamites called their country Elam, which you also claim means homeland, and trying to relate it to Eezham, which u then say is modern :) You also claim that the Elamites didn’t use vowels!!! FYI there are 2 vowels in Elam. :)

        The migration of toddy tappers from Sri Lanka, u mention happened around 1-2 C.E and they claim descent from the Sinhalese people.

        Before you point fingers at scholars like Koenraad Elst, don’t u think that u should get a hold of what u r saying? I have read this article of yours a bit more closely now, and it is a jumble of direct falsehoods and I don’t think anything would surprise you, who obviously lives in a world constructed of fallacies as everything is possible in a world where one first makes a conclusion, which is often false, and try to alter the evidence to reach that conclusion, rather than coming to a conclusion, based on the evidence or test a hypothesis based on valid arguments deduced from the evidence.

        As far as Eezham (Eelam/Sinhala/Ceylon) is concerned the ancient Tamils called it so, meaning the country of the Sinhalese. Ancient Tamil lexicons and Tamil literature right upto the 20th century attest to this. Until the late 19th century/begining of the 20th century, the Tamils in Sri Lanka said they came from the opposite coast and settled in Sri Lanka. It was later, due to political reasons that some of them have rejected their origins and started to claim that they are the original inhabitants of Sri Lanka, of which no convincing proof is given, but a huge amount of fake theories have been made, like the one you have come with in regards to migration FROM Sri Lanka to Elam and the theory you present about Ophir and Oviyars. Do you have any scholarly references to your claim that Elamites migrated FROM Sri Lanka?

        I do agree with you on one point, namely that the so called Aryan Invasion didn’t happen, and that the Eurocentric version of history, where promoting western superiority was the priority rather than the evidence and truth, must be laid dead. But attempts like yours to promote Tamil/Dravidian superiority, where u try to claim so much of the world history to be Dravidian and particularly Tamil, as if other people did not exist, should also not happen. At any cost, the Tamils in Sri Lanka are a diaspora of Tamilakam/Tamilnadu, as pr available evidence and references you yourself have given, and the geographical meaning of the word Eelam in Tamil is, Sinhala (Ceylon/Lanka).

        • Anuraag Sanghi said, on March 29, 2013 at 8:38 am

          OK … I get your rather simple point.

          I should not trash Koenraad Elst’s trojan trash.

          Why use so many words and confusions to declare to make this simple point?

      • Suren said, on March 29, 2013 at 2:19 am

        I don’t understand what you are saying in your point 3, where u say “For pre-Buddha India, modern history has little to offer”.

        Just to get a perspective of what your idea about events given in Indian literature is, could you say, when u think the Mahabharata war happened and when was Silappatikaram written?

        I would also like to point out that your claim that there is no mention of an Aryan language is wrong, because in Tamil literature, Sanskrit is refered to as Arya, but ofcourse, there’s no mention of a race called Arya, because that as you say is a western contruction. Funny how they defined that race, using the Indian word Arya, but ended up calling themselves the Aryan race. Much like the Eelam scenario, where the ancient Tamils called the Sinhalese country as Eelam, but Tamils who migrated to the Sinhalese country have recently claimed almost half of it, and have named this would be country Tamil Eelam !!

        • hari said, on August 5, 2013 at 7:13 pm

          @Suren
          if u dnt know history just keep quiet stop trolling here ,it was sinhalese who migrated to srilanka ,b4 it was full of tamilians mostly dravidans ,ceylon consisted of various tribes dominant was the nagas, thn pandiyans kings
          my family lineage was from ceylon ,my caste is illuvar that means illathu pillai or eelathu pillai and eelam means homeland , dont u know the meaning of home in the is vedu also in sanga tamil as illam (ellam).dont u know that thousands of people shed blood to stop deprival of their homeland by the sinhalas

        • Sharmalondon said, on August 5, 2013 at 7:17 pm

          You are aware that GENETICS 100% refutes any South Indian migration to west asia or central asia.

          BUT, genetics 100% proves migration from North India into west asia and central asia.

          So in fact the genetics states that NORTH INDIANS who spoke a tamil dialect moved into west asia and middle east, therefore its not a south Indian connection but a north Indian connection, which comes from south India.

          If you look at a map of India, the only place to migrate into west asia is from north west india. So if you take genetics into account, then the tamil connection to elam.west asia.egypt etc, is DIRECTLY FROM A NORTH INDIAN perspective, before the onset of sanskrit development. Also the missionary version that Indus was created by south Indian tamils is also wrong, it was likely created by north indians who spoke a tamil dialect, who then migrated into west asia and central asia, forming the link that South Indian christian try to do today.

          ___________
          Metspalu, Gyaneshwer Chaubey et al, American Journal of Human Genetics, Dec. 2011)

          Genetic study finds no evidence for Aryan Migration Theory–On the contrary, South Indians migrated to north and South Asians migrated into Eurasia. The study is comprehensive, unlike previous studies of human genome and is unique, because it focuses on large number of populations in South Asia, and India.Haplotype diversity associated with dark green ancestry is greatest in the south of the Indian subcontinent, indicating that the alleles underlying it most likely arose there and spread northwards.

          __________

          One of many studies that confirm the same conclusion, that any connection to from Tamil to Elam in west asia is from a NORTH INDIAN not a SOUTH INDIAN connection.

  27. [...] As the Aryan Invasion Theory has no legs to stand on, Western historians have sneaked in a Dravidian Invasion Theory (@prasannavishy Elst's Trojan Dravidian Invasion http://t.co/C8DhbVRusT 'Hindu…  [...]

  28. masculineffort said, on July 21, 2013 at 4:38 pm

    Anurag, I like your writing and your passion. That being said, You take yourself and your views way to seriously. Chill out, man! So sensitive to criticism you are. Much like all those Yummrikans you seem to be obsessed with.

  29. […] and Black African Culture and languages”. “Japanese and Dravidian (Youtube video)”. “Dravidian and Hittite connection – King with Dravidian name”. “Academia Education share research – Recent Cretan DNA studies show that the first […]

  30. masculineffort said, on February 24, 2014 at 4:41 pm

    In the Pali Canon, the word Ariya refers to the noble ones who have attained at least the first stream of liberation. To the Blessed one, there were only two castes, Ariyo and Anariyo. This is the context in which the word Ariya (sanskrit: Arya) was used those days. To refer to the Ariyans as a race is like referring to the equator pole as a country. Why is it so difficult to make a simple point these days?

  31. Husayn said, on April 12, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    On a spiritual side I have seen Prophet Muhammad PBH 10times and I say it with no boasting I dreamt of the Prophet PBH and I am standing besides him and I was told I am not a sayyid and I ask the Prophet PBH about the Indian people, he PBH had a big smile on his face this is why I started to find out about the Indian people particularly the dark ones2times I dreamt the dravidians are the sumerians and 1time they are from Canaan and that the blacks and ethiopians(afro asiatic note they are different) are from cush ibn ham different races originate from Cush son of Ham is what I mean )
    and after a yr I came across something in Prophets and Patriarchs which it said 2times Nimrod(disbeliever was son of cush son of canaan son of ham There is two cush’s and people have gotten them mixed up the sumerians migrated to india but also they went into southern arabia thats how a group of them made it to the horn of africa and the dark afro asiatic elamites are from Phut ibn Ham yes the cushites from cush ibn ham are indeed blessed as well

    i dreamt a explanation of the dravidians i was told in the dream (hamitic) in type with straight hair and were also egyptians then after some time i dreamt the dravidians came from the fertile crescent in syria close to the sea and after this i dreamt they came from egypt close to the sea and i see arrows showing their travel one arrow goes up into the fertile crescent in syria and the other goes east through south iraq and southern iran until the arrow reached northwest india! also i dreamt of a migration in the shape of a U on the river nile nowhere did i see anything to do with the horn of africa I believe this is also 2011 which i saw this i dont remember a date

    . On 13/11/11 I dreamt the dravidians are Phoenicians( A branch of Dravidians ) on the 28/12/11 i dreamt the phoenecians in north africa and i saw italy and there is interaction between them both

    and i found this article on the dravidians below

    The Mediterranean Peoples (Dravidians)
    (Extracts from ‘The Original Indians — An Enquiry’ by Dr. A. Desai)
    How the Mediterranean people came to be called Dravidians makes interesting story. The Pre-Hellenistic Lycians of Asi Minor, who where probably the Mediterranean stock called themselves Trimmili. Another tribe of this branch in the island of Crete was known by the name Dr(a)mil or Dr(a)miz. In ancient Sanskrit writings we find the terms Dramili and Dravidi, and then Dravida which referred to the southern portion of India.
    South India was known to the ancient Greek and Roman geographers as Damirica or Limurike. Periplus Maris Erithroei (Periplus of the Eritrean Sea) in the second or third century AD described the maritime route followed by Greek ships sailing to the South Indian ports: “Then follow Naoura and Tundis, the first marts of Limurike and after these Mouziris and Nelkunda, the seats of government.â€
    Dramila, Dravida and Damirica indicated the territory. Then it was applied to the people living in the territory and the language they spoke, in the local parlance Tamil and Tamil Nadu or Tamilakam.

    ———————–
    The Mediterraneans or Dravidians were associated with the ancient Sumerian civilizations of Mesopotamia and of Elam (southern Iran). Authors have pointed out ethnic, linguistic and cultural affinities between the Sumerians (Mesopotamians) and the Dravidians of South India, and concluded that both probably belonged to the same ethnic stock. HR Hall writes: “The ethnic type of the Sumerians, so strongly marked in their statues and relofs was as different from those of the races which surrounded them as was their language from those of the Semites, Aryans and others; they were decidedly Indian in type. The face-type of the average Indian today is no doubt much the same as that of the Dravidian race ancestors thousands of years ago…And it is to this Dravidian ethnic type of India that the ancient Sumerian bears most resemblance, so far as we can judge from his monuments. He was very like a Southern Hindu of the Deccan (who still speaks Dravidian languages). And it is by no means improbable that the Sumerians were an Indian tribe which passed, certainly by land, perhaps also by sea, through Persia to the valley of the Two Rivers.â€
    Hall is of the opinion that Dravidian people must have migrated to Mesopotamia from India, whereas others think Dravidians came from Mediterranean regions, which was their earlier home. KP Padmanabha Menon writes about their close relationship: “Orientalists, many of them, are prepared to concede that the Sumerians, the Mediterranean race, are branches of the early Dravidians.â€

    Nimrudh (Nimrod) was the son of Kush (Cush) Ibn Kan’an Ibn Ham lbn Nuh. The same who ruled Babil in the days of lbràhim, the friend of the Compassionate.

    http://www.soebratie.nl/religie/hadith/IbnSad.html this info i got 2013 because when I enter it into my notes on facebook it shows the date)))
    Also I should make mention there are 3 Nimrods one is Nimrod son of Arfakhshaad(Arphaxad) son of Shem his dwelling place was Al Hijr(North Arabia) the 2 nd Nimrod is Nimrod son of Cush son of Canaan son of Ham and the 3rd is Nimrod son of Cush son of Ham

  32. Husayn said, on April 12, 2014 at 9:33 pm

    On the Elamites
    By:Ardy
    Date: 8/14/2002, 9:59 pm
    Until relatively recently, many scholars including the world renown late Roman Girshman thought of the Elamites as an essentially Asianic Mediterranean race of people speaking, like the majority of the people on the Iranian Pleateau prior to the Aryan invasions (circa 4000 years ago)a Caucasic tongue related to the languages of Georgia and much of the Caucasus (Abkhaz, Mingrellian, Daghestani etc…)

    Of particular interest to me is the nature of the depictions ofo Elamite as well as Mede and Persian soldiers on the walls of the palace of Shush now mostly at the Louvre Museum in Paris.
    The elite Immortal division of the Persian army during Achamenid times was composed of Persians, Medes and Elamites (and perhaps at times Scythians). I have several original pictures of these walls and these show guardsmen of different ethnic origin parading with their respective regimental colors.

    To my surprise, 2 out of 3 of these guardsmen were depicted as blond with green or blue eyes. These represented the Persian and Mede nobility unmixed with the aboriginal population. Then, there were Elamite warriors whose skin was, for all purpose, black. Most had straight or wavy hair but a few seem to have had more curly hair (this may have been due to the then common practice ofcurling hair according to Assyrian practice and thus reflected a fashion trend rather than an ethnic trait).

    The Elamites were black skinned, as well the people of eastern Iran whom Herodotus refered to as “Asiatic Ethiopians”. Over the years, more in depth studies has revealed that the language of teh Elamites was in fact an archair form of Dravidian. The red ware style of of Elamite pottery was also similar to that found in northern INdia during the Mohenjo-Daro and Harrapa civilization. Today, there remains very little doubt taht these people were in fact Dravidian.

    What is a Dravidian? Dravidians may be a very ancient mixture of local Mediterranean physical types commonly found (to this day, probably the majority element among Iranians) on the Iranian Plateau with Australoid people of the Veddoind type. THe result was the features common to teh Elamites including short stature, longish face, straight hair and blackish skin.

    Although the ethnic character of Iran has been redrawn and modified many times over the millenia, you can still travel to places such as Kerman in the south east as well as Zanjan and the pronvince of Balutchestan (home of Herodotus’ Asiatic Ethiopians) and see these racial affinities among the locals who still live mostly on fishing, just as they had for thousands of years. and also this month of april 2014 i cannot find the date but i dreamt the elamites were a mix between three dravidian canaanite, canaanite type same as pure aboriginals of north america and a hamitic type that is like some ethiopians with light curly hair to wavy not an afro texture and features are similar to dark indian these three mixes you will not get an african looking person dark skin yes

  33. jamalovic said, on August 30, 2014 at 11:36 pm

    i am sorry…but its just… bla bla…
    anyone can say anything.
    for ex someones wrote-
    1/ Indians were the first to use vowels – and till the Phoenicians introduced vowels to many languages in the world.
    2/ Post colonial historical revision is proposing new theories. New archaeological evidence supports history that shows Aryans moved from India to the Anatolian plains and established the Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Babylonian cultures of Elam, Mitannites, Kassites along modern Syria to Turkey. The Elamites, Mittanis, Hittites competed and traded with the Egyptians. (funny)
    3/ military successes and a spread which taken India deeper than any other civilisation in the world (really)
    shocking and so funny but far away from reality like bollywood’s movies.
    THEN i have to say to all those people who present themselves as they were from the beginning of history .(not all people are fools or stupids).

    AS CONCLUSION
    GAVE YOUR PROOFS.

  34. saranga said, on October 19, 2014 at 7:21 pm

    Dravidians are getting suppressed fro two directions.From north – north indian aryans and from south – Sinhalese (Ariyasinhala) race, both culturally and by politically.So Intellectuals in Dravid society seek their origins and roots to verify where they really belongs and to fight back to defend the dravidian ppl and culture. But at last it seems that they have to turn to the modern poorer africa as their rooting land and to finally go there n rest in peace leaving india and lanka. I’m a Srilankan. And an Aryan.


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