http://library.thinkquest.org/26602/ceremonies.htm

& Remember Italian, Greek, Latin, and German are all very new languages. In high school books it is taught per Indian history, that Aryans “civilized” the Dravidian population.. yet, again, the Vedic texts (Krishna’s verses), Vedic culture were present in all of India and India only, and no where else-

the precise position of the stars and planets were noted in the writing of Bhagavad Gita, this is how we are able to date it to about 3000 BC (birth of Krishna).

Interesting article on Vedic astronomy: http://www.crystalinks.com/indiastronomy.html

and here is article that provides evidence re: dates of Bhagavad Gita

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/intro.html

“That proof of the date 3102 B.C. can be verified by any knowledgeable indologist in India based on the fact that this was the year when the Pandava King Yudhisthira ascended the throne and was coronated as emperor of the Earth. Also according to the Aihole inscription of Pulakesin II, the Battle of Kuruksetra took place in 3102 B.C. with Lord Krishna reciting the Bhagavad-Gita before its commencement. As well precise information of the positions of the constellation at the commencement of the Battle of Kuruksetra have been given in the great historical epic Mahabharata itself, which is based on the 26,920 year astronomical cycle known as the precession of the equinoxes which is the time it takes our solar system to revolve around the central sun.”

Encyclopedia Brittanica (in Search Dravidian languages)The presence of Dravidian loanwords in the Rigveda implies that Dravidian and Aryan speakers were, by the time of its composition, fused into one speech community in the great Indo-Gangetic Plain, while independent communities of Dravidian speakers had moved to the periphery of the Indo-Aryan area (Brahui in the northwest, Kurukh-Malto in the east, and Gondi-Kui in the east and central India).

From article in Google, copy and paste whole paragraph to view
‘In this view, the early Indus Valley civilization (Harappa and Mohenjo Daro) is often identified as having been Dravidian. [6]. Cultural and linguistic similarities have been cited by researches such as Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola as being strong evidence for a proto-Dravidian origin of the ancient Indus Valley civilization. Remember there is no other genetic race in INDIA, Dravida refers to language group.

There is no other genetic race in India whoever created Indus Valley civilization: this much is fact &proven: TAMIL SANGAMS were present (Dravida is a term Brit gave to S. Indians language group” to divide India light north dark south- SEE PROOF OF THIS BY TYPING TAMILS MAHABHARATA WAR into Google, same time of Indus Valley Civilization -Vedic culture was dominant in south &north India then &now, See TAMIL SANSKRIT LINK INTO GOOGLE, THESE ARE SISTER LANGUAGES

Krishna’s writings& Bhagavad Gita, his temples reside in the city of Dwaaraka which has recently been uncovered.

Even in Vedic literatures you will see India’s formal numerical system (ek dho theen) & Sanskrit is written in same script as modern Hindi (Devanagari). See also Scientific Verificaition of Vedic Knowledge videos as well as Aryan Invasion Theory Proven False videos (proof of continuity in these areas: cultural, linguistic, genetic, religious for India’s religion & Vedic texts)

No, not a 700AD product! The core concepts were known 2000 years before the dated wreck of the ship. Which lay there for another 2000 years. Hard to imagine – as I may not live past 100; but we all play our small part.

I would argue – as it appears ‘Chaldean’ astronomy, appears in

Two weeks ago I saw a working reproduction, built in Australia from plans compiled from the Athens Museum team, after the millimetre by millimeter layer-imaging.

I have seen a reproduction Antikythera mechanism made in Sydney, Australia.

How does this make it Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Babylonian – anything at all? Am I missing a point?

My reading supports your India+Assyria=Babylon -> Whole World path theory.

I value your reading and informed agreement.

If the locus of the Antikythera invention – which appears connected to Smyrna, and Archimedes;

Now this connection is what bothers me! How did this connection come about? There is no ‘evidence’ except some pretty solid ‘mythic’ modelling.

came from a Roman trading vessel full of artworks in bronze, metals, and marble, at a time of a peak of sea-trade, and transport of wheat from Egpyt and loot (and ideas), of wide-spread Roman-invasions – to Rome;

14th-16thcentury Italian sculptures and bronze statues were pretty Greco Roman – going by appearances. So, to assign dates basedon ‘appearances’ and ‘design schools’ is suspect methodology.

On what basis was the Antikythera dating done? On what basis was this identified as a Roman ship? Any radio carbon dating? The fact that this was from a Roman trading vessels – does not make it Greek. Did you notice the complete lack of coverage for the other artifacts in this ship? Did you notice the funding for this project comes from the Leverhulme Trust of Britain? Does the propaganda motive occur to you as ‘credible’?

The Romans did trade with the Byzantine Empire – and could have easily bought a Antikythera mechanism in Istanbul bazaars.

then, I would argue the shipplng of a SINGLE calendric and navigation-device on a ship, makes sense. Did Cook take a box-load of sextants when he crossed the Pacific? If we found one sextant in a wreck, would we call that “thin data”. I think not.

Who needs a box-load of Antikytheras? I would argue the Antikythera was too-strategic a device, to mass-produce.

Largely agree.

Where did I imply, state that every ship would need to carry many Antikytheras.

Most probably, it was made by skilled craftsmen, one-at-a-time. Roman buyers possibly ponied up advance payments – and collected the mechanism 6 months – 1 year later.

The wreck was reported, as looted itself, in advance of its “discovery” by sponge-divers, on an island on the sea-route to Rome. It was designed for Roman needs; as it gave dates for Roman festivals.

Greco Roman festivals were common – and if it was made in the Byzantine city of Istanbul, it still does not clash with my alternative.

If the (school-of) Archimedes was the builder; then, looking at the history of Smyrna; Archimede’s father was also an astronomer-mathematician. Smyrna, a centre of military-device invention; and, Archimedes a Greek under Roman rule, a living treasure to the Romans, due to his ability to design seige-weaponry.

The record tells Archimedes was in the middle of diagram in the sand (’Don’t step on my circles), when killed by a rogue Roman.

If .. If .. If .. then Bob’s my Uncle! Completely and purely speculative.

Never before did the Greeks or Romans make any such finely crafted mechanical device. To imagine, that the school Archimedes acquired these skills to make one such fine crafted device – and promptly lost these skills. It is a lot like Hannibal’s elephants.

How to build an Antikythera

The builder of the Antikythera in circa AD 70 did NOT wake, one day, and say:” Mmmm. After I have my yoghurt, I think I will build a thing today which counts planetary moves, allows ships to locate themselves in the open ocean, counts Saros Cycles, computes nodes of the Moon, and predicts eclipses, Roman festivals and what-not, for my Roman overlords”‘.

The arrival of device like the Antikythera – takes generations and generations and generations of record-keeping, know-how and failed experiments.

Am I imagining the contradiction? So, where did these skills disappear? How come no other mechanical contrivance (of alternative functionality) have ever been found?

I have seen similar simpler bronze calender devices in old metals markets in South India.

The use of Greek language makes the Antikythera origin from India improbable – though Bactrian coin manufacturers could be prime suspects, if one wants to make ‘artificial’ case.

To build the Antikythera needed metals and wood-working workshop, with fine tools. It needed a long-standing tradition of metal working;

Which the Greeks or Romans did not possess.

accumulations of maybe thousands of years or more of data-collection; much mathematics and theorising – its a work of generations of record-keeping and calculations; records, once controlled by “priests”, in “temples”. Turned into a portable device, the Antikythera meant political and social dynamite.

In short, my reading supports your premise of the transmission of ideas India+Assyria=Babylon -> (then, in this case Greek – >Roman, Antikythera) Whole World path theory.

While I welcome your openness to the Indo-Assyrian Babylonian Theory, I think Antikythera had very little ‘Indian’ and Babylonian contribution. There is however significant Byzantine origin logic.

The fact that the Antikythera was, perhaps MADE by a Greek in a Roman city, for Roman needs, simply demonstrates application of a time-stream of knowledge, passed-on by invasion, or invention funded by current tax-collecting social class of the era – The Romans.

Romans as buyers of the output? Yes! As manufacturers, there is no evidence – of anyone in any culture of making a mechanical device of the Antikythera complexity in 70BC-70AD period. It is clearly a 700 AD product.

“The Antikythera ‘legend’ is another classic case of thin data – and massive fiction, speculation, and propaganda”.

Two weeks ago I saw a working reproduction, built in Australia from plans compiled from the Athens Museum team, after the millimetre by millimeter layer-imaging.

You write: ‘Look at the subsequent history of astrolabes – which were similar to the Antikythera. These were made in the arc of Middle East and India. Greek was the lingua france of the Byzantine Empire till the 15th century – and for a Byzantine astrolabe maker /mechanic to construct the Antikythera using Greek language would be but natural, naturales, naturel, 自然 (Japanese), 自然的;有关自然界的 (Chinese).

I have seen a reproduction Antikythera mechanism made in Sydney, Australia.

My reading supports your India+Assyria=Babylon -> Whole World path theory. If the locus of the Antikythera invention – which appears connected to Smyrna, and Archimedes; and, which came from a Roman trading vessel full of artworks in bronze, metals, and marble, at a time of a peak of sea-trade, and transport of wheat from Egpyt and loot (and ideas), of wide-spread Roman-invasions – to Rome; then, I would argue the shipplng of a SINGLE calendric and navigation-device on a ship, makes sense. Did Cook take a box-load of sextants when he crossed the Pacific? If we found one sextant in a wreck, would we call that “thin data”. I think not.

Who needs a box-load of Antikytheras? I would argue the Antikythera was too-strategic a device, to mass-produce. (If Bill Gates had been there at the time, perhaps Antikythera factories would prove the next step). But, it was near the begining of the decline of Roman rule; and, the rise of Christianity, as a mass-movement in Europe. Roman culture had split, and Rome itself near that time recorded sporadic years of famine near this time, when wheat harvests failed in Egypt.

The wreck was reported, as looted itself, in advance of its “discovery” by sponge-divers, on an island on the sea-route to Rome. It was designed for Roman needs; as it gave dates for Roman festivals.

If the (school-of) Archimedes was the builder; then, looking at the history of Smyrna; Archimede’s father was also an astronomer-mathematician. Smyrna, a centre of military-device invention; and, Archimedes a Greek under Roman rule, a living treasure to the Romans, due to his ability to design seige-weaponry.

The record tells Archimedes was in the middle of diagram in the sand (‘Don’t step on my circles), when killed by a rogue Roman.

How to build an Antikythera

The builder of the Antikythera in circa AD 70 did NOT wake, one day, and say:” Mmmm. After I have my yoghurt, I think I will build a thing today which counts planetary moves, allows ships to locate themselves in the open ocean, counts Saros Cycles, computes nodes of the Moon, and predicts eclipses, Roman festivals and what-not, for my Roman overlords”‘.

The arrival of device like the Antikythera – takes generations and generations and generations of record-keeping, know-how and failed experiments. I have seen similar simpler bronze calender devices in old metals markets in South India.

To build the Antikythera needed metals and wood-working workshop, with fine tools. It needed a long-standing tradition of metal working; accumulations of maybe thousands of years or more of data-collection; much mathematics and theorising – its a work of generations of record-keeping and calculations; records, once controlled by “priests”, in “temples”.

Turned into a portable device, the Antikythera meant political and social dynamite.

In short, my reading supports your premise of the transmission of ideas India+Assyria=Babylon -> (then, in this case Greek – >Roman, Antikythera) Whole World path theory.

The fact that the Antikythera was, perhaps MADE by a Greek in a Roman city, for Roman needs, simply demonstrates application of a time-stream of knowledge, passed-on by invasion, or invention funded by current tax-collecting social class of the era – The Romans.

Inventors don’t care where knowledge comes from. But may need financial sponsorship, and devices – as, great leaps of ideas – come after generations of mentoring in a stable civilisation. But, can pass from one civilisation to another. Or stop at one inventor, if records get destroyed, hidden, or stolen. Or, if working models and prototypes get sunk beneath the sea. Or one civilisation fades – or say, volcanic events, tsumanis, or ice-dam-break sea-level rises or dam-breach flood-catastrophes remove whole centres of learning, in one go.

A disruptive technology, for sure.

Your polite astonishment at the Western presumption that Greeks invented mathematics and astronomy – and presentation of the logical possibility the path was India – The Rig Veda – Babylon – Egypt (?) Greece; makes sense, to me.

Rig Veda – Babylon – Egypt (?) Greece

Instead of Rig Veda – Babylon – Egypt (?) Greece, which you seem to takeaway from my post, I am proposing that it was India+Assyria=Babylon -> Whole World path.

I am continually amazed at what was achieved in Babylon – which seemed like a intellectual ‘free-port’.

Modern Western Christian practice sits at the end of the long trail; and appears to reproduce a relics of debased residues of lost exact science – repressed and forgotten astronomical knowledge in which stars, planets, and nodes, reappear, de-ified, as Gods. (As they do, in Indian pantheons).

I like this thought!

The recent imaging and subsequent reconstructions of the Antikythera Mechanism, for example; a bronze hand-cranked clock-calendar-computer to predict planetary moves, eclipses and festivals, excited some degree of Greek amazement, as it was built about AD 70 – perhaps in the life time of Archimedes, and was perhaps made in his home-town – (21 Centuries ago) a good 5 centuries before the supposed Western invention of the clock.

The tooth count of the bronze gears use Metonic and Saros cycles and were built to serve both Egyptian and Greek calendar needs. A revolutionary device; as it would tend to reduce the value of Brahminic-style astroomical mathematical temple-calendar and eclipse-predictiion scholarship.

A disruptive technology, for sure.

The Antikythera ‘legend’ is another classic case of thin data – and massive fiction, speculation, and propaganda.

Look at the subsequent history of astrolabes – which were similar to the Antikythera. These were made in the arc of Middle East and India. Greek was the lingua france of the Byzantine Empire till the 15th century – and for a Byzantine astrolabe maker /mechanic to construct the Antikythera using Greek language would be but natural, naturales, naturel, 自然 (Japanese), 自然的;有关自然界的 (Chinese).

The Native Greeks never displayed such a fine sense of mechanical construction – but is abundant in the Islamic Middle East. The Islamic Middle East did cater to the Greek language users of the Byzantine Empire.

Would a Japanese Toyota car, discovered in Saudi Arabian ruins, after 500 years, using Arabic numerals, become a ‘marvel of Saudi engineering’?

The answer to the Antikythera is in the accompanying artefacts. I have not found any discussions anywhere in the last 4 years, about the ‘companion’ artefacts of the Antikythera.

Congratulations on your suggestions on language – links to Sanskrit in this context. (Enlil is the Assyrian God of Winds and Skies. (e.g.,. Anil अनिल is also the modern Sanskrit word for air, wind).

Modern Western Christian practice sits at the end of the long trail; and appears to reproduce a relics of debased residues of lost exact science – repressed and forgotten astronomical knowledge in which stars, planets, and nodes, reappear, de-ified, as Gods. (As they do, in Indian pantheons).

Tibetan sand mandalas likewise, appear to offer the Babylonian circular version of the square astronomical records of the Vedas; Tibetan gods tell the similar stories.
I find some comfort in the realisation of at least 30,000 years of catacyclysms, wars; and repetitive re-discovery of prior broad knowledge of, the working of the universe.

The recent imaging and subsequent reconstructions of the Antikythera Mechanism, for example; a bronze hand-cranked clock-calendar-computer to predict planetary moves, eclipses and festivals, excited some degree of Greek amazement, as it was built about AD 70 – perhaps in the life time of Archimedes, and was perhaps made in his home-town – (21 Centuries ago) a good 5 centuries before the supposed Western invention of the clock.

The tooth count of the bronze gears use Metonic and Saros cycles and were built to serve both Egyptian and Greek calendar needs. A revolutionary device; as it would tend to reduce the value of Brahminic-style astroomical mathematical temple-calendar and eclipse-predictiion scholarship.

A disruptive technology, for sure.