2ndlook

Koenraad Elst: Singing Bhajans to British Gods to an Indian Audience or The Game Is Over

Posted in British Raj, Desert Bloc, History, India, Islamic Demonization, Propaganda, Religion by Anuraag Sanghi on August 5, 2012

 

British were not the worst says Koenraad Elst. They killed some people. That is all. Just some fifty times more than Islamic raiders and invaders.

Koenraad Elst’s writing has been distasteful – and his ‘scholarship’ suspect.

A 2ndlook reader, Dr.OP Sudrania, drew my attention to a new post by Elst. Unlike 2ndlook, Elst does not respond to comments or criticism – probably, because he has none.

For reasons of time, I would not normally spend much time with verbiage of the Elst variety – excepting this was too easy.

Elst writes

Lord Louis Mountbatten, only accepted Partition because the Muslim League threatened and started violence.

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

Is it beyond your Catholic-Christian intelligence to see how British could put Gandhiji behind bars for threatening non-violent protest! The British had no qualms (and artificial regret later) when O’Dyer opened fire on unarmed people in Jallianwala Bagh, Amritsar?

But could not do anything when Jinnah threatened and started violence? Your Christian-Catholic logic escapes my ‘Hindu-Indian’ thinking.

Completely.

Viceroys Lord Victor Linlithgow and Lord Archibald Wavell told Jinnah to his face that they would not countenance the division of their nice and neat Indian empire, not even in the event of decolonization. Their successor, Lord Louis Mountbatten, only accepted Partition because the Muslim League threatened and started violence.

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

I presume it is below Elst’s Catholic-Christian intelligence to provide proof and citation of this. Day, date, time, place, witnesses, subjects discussed, duration of the meeting(s), other participants? Catholic Christian Elst gives no details.

Was Catholic Christian Elst the proverbial fly-on-the-British-wall, who witnessed these events first hand, in his previous birth?

brainwash the Indian Muslims into becoming India-loving Hindus

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

I presume again that is is below Elst’s Catholic-Christian intelligence to provide data or source which shows that Indian-Muslims do not love India – as much as Hindus?

And what are ‘Hindus’ supposed to do? Send Indian Muslims to concentration camps?

Like America did with Americans of Japanese descent during WWII? Or Britain did to Boers during the Boer War? Or the Spanish did with Cubans in the War of Freedom by Cuban Slaves?

Or are we to follow the example of your king, Leopold of Belgium who managed to annihilate more than 1 crore people of Congo, who he deemed to be his ‘personal’ property?

British had nothing to do with Partition, and that this was a purely Muslim operation necessitated by the present democratic age’s belief in numbers.

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

Is it below Elst’s Catholic-Christian intelligence to accept evidence from Jinnah’s statement when Jinnah said how “suddenly there was a change in the attitude towards me. I was treated on the same basis as Mr Gandhi. I was wonderstruck why all of a sudden I was promoted and given a place side by side with Mr Gandhi.”

I will argue that the British had nothing to do with Partition

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

Mr.Elst, you will make your Catholic-Christian arguments without citations, evidence, links, quotes, sources, because the Hindu is polite to stop you?

It is only the fledgling Cold War that made the British and also the Americans see a silver lining in the Partition, viz. that one of the parties would join the Western camp and provide it an outpost to monitor the Soviet threat

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

Is it beyond your Catholic-Christian intelligence to do some background study about the The Great Game that was played out between the Tsarist & Soviet Russia and the British from 1840-1940?

How Russia was seen as the biggest threat to the Indian Empire by the British Raj?

To be sure, the British were guilty of many things, and the fixation of Hindu nationalists on them is understandable. Principally, they caused several very serious famines, they dismantled the technology and economic structure of India, and they imposed a foreign ideology that harmed the natives’ self-respect. This did not make British rule “the biggest crime in history”, as L.K. Advani claims on his blog (15 July 2012), but it was pretty bad.

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

After killing more than 25 million Indians – which is about 50 times more than what the Islamic invaders and rulers killed and enslaved, your Catholic-Christian intelligence believes that the British were not the worst killers in the history of humanity – way beyond Hitler.

I would agree with you on one thing here.

The Hindu is too polite – and should actually go after your Catholic-Christian *#@* with all that he has in all his god-given Hindu departments … and a crowbar, to prove his courage!

Hindus who blame the British for Partition, show that they are afraid of the truth, and afraid of Islam. It is far easier to accuse the British, who have safely departed, than to lay the blame at the door of Islam. Blaming Islam opens a can of worms, it is difficult to deal with this religion. It is a challenge to one’s courage, but it is mainly a challenge to one’s intelligence. If you are deficient in these departments, then go ahead and blame the British.

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

Is there a deficiency in your Catholic-Christian departments that you should deal with facts, documents, sources, evidence, quotations – and not in hate, name calling?

Can a Catholic-Christian intelligence rise above it’s vile, genocidal ways of the last 2000 years?

It is here that I have more reason to worry. Though Hindus have shown great intelligence in the literature of the past and ICT initiatives of the present, they have mostly failed to apply their intelligence to the Islam problem, though this is staring them in the face every day. But I am confident that now you will do something about it.

via Koenraad Elst: The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was.

Your Catholic-Christian mind has a good reason to be worried. Indians are seeing through the Christian-Progressive-Liberal Game – and you may be out of business.

Faster than you imagine.


 

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108 Responses

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  1. Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 5, 2012 at 7:03 pm

  2. Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 5, 2012 at 7:04 pm

  3. Roni said, on August 5, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Agree, i have recently read some of Elsts writings, and he is now WITHOUT A DOUBT promoting a racial ARYA lineage. I have also come accross his assertion that Budda is from central asia, and migrated to north India. I think the time has come to realize this charlatan.

  4. Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 5, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    “Hindus who blame the British for Partition, show that they are afraid of the truth, and afraid of Islam. It is far easier to accuse the British, who have safely departed, than to lay the blame at the door of Islam. Blaming Islam opens a can of worms, it is difficult to deal with this religion. It is a challenge to one’s courage, but it is mainly a challenge to one’s intelligence. If you are deficient in these departments, then go ahead and blame the British.”

    I am glad that you have picked it up. I felt this above quote highly indignant but it is sad that the average Indian audience get too obsessed especially if it comes from the mouth of a white charltan irrespectively. I also felt sad when I was misunderstood on that blog and my last comment was not allowed. I am also called to change my opinion of KE. I felt betrayed in my conscience. When a reasoned discussion is faultered, then the very essence of discussion is lost and any further exrcise becomes fruitless.

    Thanks Anurag for your cognisance. It is time that he is exposed. There is another Belgian – Jean Dreze being nurtured by Sonia who has become a naturalised Indian citizen, puts on payjama kurta like the full sized forehead vermillion trademark of Hinduism but notoriously anti Hindu. Both these fellows are moles. He was also a member of Sonia’s NAC team but he has been kicked out after his controversial anti Hindu remarks, as I think. Still he enjoys the nearest link with people like Amartya Sen.

    I hope that more and more people understand their hidden designs. UPA II has been particularly instrumental in nurturing such anti national elements, perhaps to get a mileage for her black money and black links.

  5. Darshan said, on August 6, 2012 at 12:24 am

    “to provide data or source which shows that Indian-Muslims do not love India – as much as Hindus?”

    Oh you need data do you?

    How about the fact that your beloved muslims overwhelmingly voted for ML in the 1946 elections?

    How about the numerous riots, massacres, and ethnic cleansing of KPs since 1947?

    How about numerous terrorist attacks carried out with local muslims help.

    Oh that doesn’t really count, the victims are only worthless kaffir Hindus after all.

    Forget Elst, why are you so worried about muslim mlecchas?

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 6, 2012 at 1:31 am

      Before I give data, you will admit that Elst has been blowing his pungee without an iota of data or facts.

      “to provide data or source which shows that Indian-Muslims do not love India – as much as Hindus?”

      Oh you need data do you?

      How about the fact that your beloved muslims overwhelmingly voted for ML in the 1946 elections?

      Much before this election – and after this election, non-Muslims were eager to handover a part of India to Muslims.

      Before this election, you had people like Lala Lajpat Rai, advocating a Muslim Homeland – which Jinnah was opposing.

      After the highly vitiated 1946 election, non-Muslims were eager to handover a Muslim homeland to Muslims in India. So that makes, as per your definition, all of us into anti-nationals.

      Now, if you had clicked on the link I provided, unlike the vessel of your love and affection, Elst, it says that of the 10 crore Muslims in India some 5.0 lakhs voted for the Muslim League. Before that election, of course, the Muslim League was a bigger washout.

      Kaput – one leg gone.

      How about the numerous riots, massacres, and ethnic cleansing of KPs since 1947?

      Brilliant point!

      Kashmiri Pandits were driven off from the Valley during a Hindutva Governor – Jagmohan – who had the entire might of the Indian State at his disposal. What did he do?

      Whine?

      A few criminal leaders, colluded to drive out Kashmiri Pandits from their homes. Can they dare to do this, if the State had been clear in its thinking and execution? How can a few warlords and gangsters drive away thousands from their homes – except in State collusion?

      How about numerous terrorist attacks carried out with local muslims help. Oh that doesn’t really count, the victims are only worthless kaffir Hindus after all.

      So, if out of 15 crore Muslims, some 150 of them are rotten apples, all of them become terrorists? What brilliant logic?

      Forget Elst, why are you so worried about muslim mlecchas?

      Why forget mlechcha Elst?

      Why are you so bothered about a mlechcha who is spouting lies, distorting history, who is defending the most blood-soaked regime in human history? I wonder why you are so callous? Is your hatred of Muslims so strong that you will ally yourself with defenders of a regime that killed more than 2 crore Indians?

      By the way – what are you?

      I am sure you must be, what many are proud to use, who mlechchas call a Hindu! Hindu – a mlechcha term!

      But I am not surprised by your response. Living in mlechcha land, why would you be bothered about deaths of crores of Indians.

  6. Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 6, 2012 at 1:08 am

    I have deliberately visited his one article on Vijayvani of Sandhya Jain, and made my similar comment but he never responds. This is typical of him. I enlist the following links also for your readers to peruse:

    (1) http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=2147

    On this link he goes at length to explain his spurious conversion in a vainglorious manner ad nauseatum.

    (2) http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/hindu-survival-what-is-to-be-done-koenraad-elst/

    Hindu Survival: What is to be done – Koenraad Elst

    (3) I am not sure if you have known his book: “Who is a Hindu?”

    He looks to me that he is a new messiah incarnated to educate the imbecile Hindus who don’t know who they are? A Belgique of King Leopold II the mass crusader of Congo people whose own hands are soaked in massacre is posing as a Hindu savior. His selection is worthy of his wit, I concede on this point. Most unfortunate part is that the gullible audience is so naive to miss his nefarious designs.

    This is what exactly Malcolm Muggeridge had implied when he made his comment that Indians are left spiritually bankrupt. “‘As I dimly realised, a people can be laid waste culturally as well as physically; not their lands but their inner life, as it were, sewn with salt. This is what happened to India. An alien culture, itself exhausted, become trivial and shallow, was imposed upon them; when we went, we left behind railways, schools and universities, statues of Queen Victoria and other of our worthies, industries, an administration, a legal system; all that and much more, but set in a spiritual wasteland. We had drained the country of its true life and creativity, making of it a place of echoes and mimicry.” Here is the link:
    http://www.badcatholic.co.uk/malcolm_muggeridge/malcolm_muggeridge.html

    If we don’t speak for ourselves, nobodyelse will.

    Thanks Anurag for your response and kind perusal. I am sure that it will open up the real can of Elst-worms.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 6, 2012 at 1:40 am
      Mr.Sudrania – We have a few rotten apples who hate India so much that they are willing to support a defender of most blood-soaked regime in human history – the British Raj. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Timur Lame, Genghis Khan did not kill as many people – as the British Raj did.

      And Koenraad Elst has the temerity to defend the Raj?

      And more worse – if there can be such a term as more worse, find supporters among ‘Hindus’. I wonder how many of these ‘Hindus’ realize that it is mlechcha name of themselves that they exhibit so proudly.

      PS – I think, Elst does not deserve any more posts, for now. Bigger and better enemies of Bharat failed. What can Elst do – which others have not tried before?

  7. S said, on August 6, 2012 at 4:40 am

    Anuraag ji,

    A brilliant writeup. But there are many other foreigners claiming to be hindu rakshaks who tries ‘tooooo hard ‘ to ‘promote’ religious differences in Bharat.

  8. senthil said, on August 6, 2012 at 4:48 am

    I agree with you agurag.. its has become a fancy for so many intellectuals are urban elite liberal ignaramoses on whitewashing british rule.. we could hear so many slogans “The British did more good to us”.. “the british united us”.. “The british gave us education, post office, railways etc”..

    And the famous of all slogans “The british left 60 years before”..

    Its time that these internal intellectual moles has to be dealt with heavy arguments..

  9. Manu said, on August 6, 2012 at 5:46 am

    Who are these muslims who have to be driven out of india… Where did they come from…. Arab lands..Iraq.. Iran..Egypt? A lucknawi muslim talks , walks and greets like me a dilliwala Brahmin …. Living in a foreign land with students/workmates from almost all over the globe… I don’t see these Indian muslims hanging out with the arabs , malaysian ,Indonesian muslims…. Forget indian muslims Pakistani muslims don’t hang out with them… They can’t coz they have nothing in common …. Pakistan is paying the price for thinking they came from somewhere else… Indian muslims majority of them have no such confusion… Aamir khans satyamev jaytey is an example …. By the same logic should we get rid of Christians from india too? And send them back to?
    My question to all non-muslim Indians is did a mass migration of arabs/Iraqis/Iranians/Egyptians/ etc take place to account for the muslims in india or they are indigenous Indians only converted to Islam either by force or persuasion or just practicality of the times that were..?

  10. Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 6, 2012 at 6:02 am
    It is amazing …

    Here is a Belgian, who is calling Indians cowards, mental misfits, impotent, retarded, ignorant, plus some – because we look at our history differently from him.

    Living in a neighborhood with two aggressive nuclear powers – and this silly Belgian, a country whose only claim to fame is the murder of a million Congolese – and the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, their leader, is teaching us what bravery is.

    Anyway, our history, our business.

    Sadly, he has support from some born-losers who think everyone else is a loser too.

    In the darkest nights of British colonization, Indians could see a brighter future. Here we have these losers, supporting someone who is using the choicest derogatory words.

    Makes me think, where have we gone wrong as a society to have so many insecure misfits among us.

  11. admin said, on August 6, 2012 at 6:14 am

  12. Kishan said, on August 6, 2012 at 6:29 am

    The argument that Jagmohan drove out Kashmiri Pandits from the valley and the Central Government was a willing partner in this crime somehow does not sound to be honest to an outside lay observer.
    The ‘a few rotten apple’ argument is also a shifting stance. Some years back we used to hear “Thank God there are no Indian Muslim terrorists”. Now it is “a few rotten apples”. Next it will be ‘Overwhelming majority is still secular’. Of course it is always a minority that dictates and the passive majority just keeps quiet.
    There is a similar ‘blind eye’ attitude for the demographic invasion in Assam and West Bengal.
    This is not to say that the English were angels; they impoverished India from one of the world’s richest countries to one of the world’s poorest.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 6, 2012 at 7:01 am

      The argument that Jagmohan drove out Kashmiri Pandits from the valley and the Central Government was a willing partner in this crime somehow does not sound to be honest to an outside lay observer.

      Unfortunately, it happened on his watch. He has to take take onus. He doesn’t. Instead he whines – on and on.

      I have not got into this story too deep – so cannot tell you more than the simple, bare facts.

      The ‘a few rotten apple’ argument is also a shifting stance. Some years back we used to hear “Thank God there are no Indian Muslim terrorists”. Now it is “a few rotten apples”. Next it will be ‘Overwhelming majority is still secular’.

      Are you looking at the cause – which is the cause of a rogue State called Pakistan, created by the Anglo-Saxon Bloc (first by the British; now the US).

      Or are blaming the foot-soldiers?

      Of course it is always a minority that dictates and the passive majority just keeps quiet.
      There is a similar ‘blind eye’ attitude for the demographic invasion in Assam and West Bengal.

      Our State policy needs to be clear on this.

      Unfortunately, the so-called opposition party, the BJP is as incompetent, if not more. Failure of the State. Poor Bangladeshis getting blamed (partially responsible), while a criminal local Assam leadership in collusion with the party in power at centre and a silent opposition party are the real culprits.

      You want the easy way out of demonizing the Muslim.

      This is not to say that the English were angels; they impoverished India from one of the world’s richest countries to one of the world’s poorest.

      Not just the loot. But the killing. 25 million; 2.5 crore is the lowest figure that can be estimated. That is the numbers killed. And there are people sitting and clapping, while Elst tries to Whitewash these Christian sins.

      • vihang said, on August 6, 2012 at 10:13 am

        Imagine if Jagmohan has worked against Islamic militancy and Pandits had stayed in the valley. what would have been the impact on morale of those pandit families whos sole bread earner gets killed by Islamists in front of their eyes? Blaming Jagmohan is easy. Blaming some one of Islamophobia is also easy.

        Partition is not a simple problem. It has infinite dimensions. Deobandis etc were against partition but that does not mean they were friends of Hindus. Even today if Deobandis are under check is just because dominant hindu majority. Deoband’s wahabi inclination is not new.
        your blog has given many answers to my questions. But then if you promote “Hindu-Muslim unity” sound and blame entirely british for partition is not appropriate. Even today, Pakistanis blame Hindus for massacre of Muslims during the partition and play innocent card as if they were sitting ducks. It should not be forgotten that direct action call was given by Muslim league if not Jinnah.

        Many Hindu leaders might have advocated for muslims nation. Does it mean Muslims never asked for it on the first stand? It may not be on the mouth of Jinnah. But Lala Lajpatrai/Savarkar advocating separation suggest there might have been a wave among popular mass around him for partition that later demanded by Jinnah. we call them visionary leaders.

        • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 6, 2012 at 11:35 am

          Blaming Jagmohan is easy. Blaming some one of Islamophobia is also easy.

          On Jagmohan, please note that there seem to be some kind of wheels-within-wheels. I am yet to take a 2ndlook at it.

          Therefore, I did put a caveat – I have not got into this story too deep – so cannot tell you more than the simple, bare facts.

          Partition is not a simple problem. It has infinite dimensions. Deobandis etc were against partition but that does not mean they were friends of Hindus. Even today if Deobandis are under check is just because dominant hindu majority. Deoband’s wahabi inclination is not new.

          Good one.

          In fact Deobandi ideological line was imperial. Why settle for a small Pakistan, when Islam can take the whole of Hindustan tomorrow. So, Deobandi support to undivided India was highly nuanced.

          I am glad you challenged this.

          your blog has given many answers to my questions. But then if you promote “Hindu-Muslim unity” sound and blame entirely british for partition is not appropriate.

          Entirely agree.

          But I am not promoting any kind of Hindu-Muslim unity. Our cultural ethos is giving space. Let us give them that.

          I see that as Indians, Muslims deserve what every Indian deserves. No more, no less.

          As Muslims they got Pakistan – and as Muslims they cannot make demands on India. Any demands whatsoever.

          Even today, Pakistanis blame Hindus for massacre of Muslims during the partition and play innocent card as if they were sitting ducks. It should not be forgotten that direct action call was given by Muslim league if not Jinnah.

          Totally right – with British complicity, I might add.

          Many Hindu leaders might have advocated for muslims nation. Does it mean Muslims never asked for it on the first stand? It may not be on the mouth of Jinnah. But Lala Lajpatrai/Savarkar advocating separation suggest there might have been a wave among popular mass around him for partition that later demanded by Jinnah. we call them visionary leaders.

          I think this was motivated by need for adequate space for non-Muslims. Without squabbling with Muslims on a daily basis.

      • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 8, 2012 at 8:37 pm

        Anurag,
        “Unfortunately, it happened on his watch. He has to take take onus. He doesn’t. Instead he whines – on and on.

        I have not got into this story too deep – so cannot tell you more than the simple, bare facts.”

        I think your stand on Jagmohan is correct to this point and please do not get involved in this most dirty hypothesis which has been mostly preached and propagated by the groups who had connived in that genocide
        and Farooq Abdullah’s regime as CM. He could be certainly taken to task when the duly elected (though controversial) and Jagmohan came later on the scene. Thus Mustafa Kamal (younger brother of F. Abdullah) and the separatists and recently this old Pakistani mole – Syed Ali Shah Geelani (hardcore Islamist propped by ISI), JKLF and Hizbul Mujahideen and a lot of others were complicit in that gory incident which should shame any sane civilised society. Peruse briefly here: http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/kashmiripandit/message/11788

        Please peruse B. Raman and some other articles on Kashmir here:

        http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/tag/terrorism/

        Just as the partition story, the Kashmir pot is even more black and dirty, made so after the defeat of USSR in Afghanistan after 1989 December when all those brute mujahideens were freed and needed to be re-employed with the tacit approval of CIA and Pentagon. What role UK/Europe played before WW II, later on US is playing. I have written a few posts on it earlier. In fact, presently, US/UN/Europe are all complicit in this dirty game by using these brute Islamists. Hence none of them are neither less nor more. Or perhaps the role may be difficult to pin point on one specific group. That is where the role being played by this pseudo-apologist of British has gone wrong.

        In the name of Hindu apologist, Elst has been indulging in sympathising with all anti Hindu forces like Dalits who are being misused by Catholic Industry to destabilise India and for predatory proselytisation. Dalits form a good bunch like Mr Chandra Bhan Prasad and KE is his best sympathiser.

        I have been lately writing my articles on this caste problem in various communities who have been maligning Hindus alone for this matter of fact Please peruse: http://www.chakranews.com/castes-in-buddhism-is-caste-only-a-hindu-problem-part-4/3094

        Four series has been aired and perhaps couple more should see it to finish them presently.

        Please allow me to stay on the topic without digressing from its main issue of “Partition, Muslims, British, KE”. I shall also request to all the apologists for dalits to avoid mixing disparate problems. Otherwise it will be a never ending blame game story. Hence please, request to all commentators, let us stick to the current mandate. It is also wise to suggest some facts to corroborate your denials or assertions when replying to a point. Without furnishing datas, as Anurag has repeatedly said, the comment looks mere indulgent dry verbosity.

  13. admin said, on August 6, 2012 at 6:46 am

  14. Hitesh Kumar said, on August 6, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Now let us have a look at the extraordinary arrogance of Indian Muslims who had supported the cause of Pakistan wholeheartedly prior to 1947. In the elections held in 1946, the Muslim League led by Jinnah won all the 30 Muslim seats in the Central Assembly and 427 out of the 507 Muslim seats in the Provincial legislatures. The North-West Frontier Province was the only exception where the Congress-Red Shirt alliance came to power. Thus, by the logic of voting and massive support to the cause of Pakistan, the Indian Muslims forfeited their right to live in India after Partition on 15th August 1947. Thus they should have, on their own, migrated to Pakistan. But they did not. The extraordinary spirit of humanity that was extended to them by the Hindus, who allowed them to continue to live in India as equal citizens, drew little appreciation from the Muslims. Ingratitude towards infidels is fundamental to Muslim psyche and character. Now, fifty years later, the Indian Muslim has become as arrogant as he was before 1947 and carries his Islamic haughtiness right on his collars. He stubbornly refuses to be a part of the Indian nation as the following would show:

    1. The Indian Muslim has not accepted any part of India’s Constitution except that relating to fundamental and minority rights.

    2. He has outright rejected the Common Civil Code for the nation.

    3. He has rejected Vande Mataram which is our national song.

    4. He does not accept Hindi as the national language even in Hindi speaking states. His preference is invariably for Urdu.

    5. He has never condemned the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in the Kashmir Valley.

    6. He has never condemned Muslim infiltration from Bangladesh. In fact, he tacitly supports the cause of illegal Bangladeshi infiltration because this adds to his numerical strength and political clout in the country.

    7. He refuses to accept the fact that there is no such thing as the Muslim Ummah except as an anti-Hindu Front. If there was such a thing, why has Saudi Arabia expelled thousands of Bangladesh nationals who are all Muslims? Again, why has Pakistan refused to accept eight lakh Bihari Muslims who are languishing in camps in Bangladesh since 1971?

  15. Whatever said, on August 6, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    1. voiceofdharma.org/books/muslimsep/
    contains the book “Muslim Separatism: Causes and Consequences” by Sita Ram Goel (who’se not a christian, and sensibly criticised both christianity and islam).
    One of the chapters is called “The Business of Blaming the British”.

    Why hide under mere term “imperialism” the _islamic_ drive of the deobandi to eventually try for jihad in India? Islam teaches dar-ul-islam vs dar-ul-harb, the british didn’t teach them that (just like the british didn’t partition Afghanistan from India, the muslimsof afghanistan did that).

    When it suited them, the christian Britain certainly encouraged and even facilitated islam’s existing propensity and eagerness for jihad, just like the country’s current christian government continues to encourage and facilitate the existing jihad and islamic terrorism against Hindus today. But no need to pretend that the tendency to jihad doesn’t already exist in islam and hence in muslims of the subcontinent (or those of the rest of the world). Just like the same tendency exists in christianity and hence christians.

    2. “British were not the worst says Koenraad Elst. They killed some people. That is all. Just some fifty times more than Islamic raiders and invaders.”

    This is wrong, as is the number: the British didn’t kill a ‘mere’ 2 crore Indians. The christian British empire genocided _at least_ 7 crore/70 million Indians. Either outright, or through famine and disease.

    However, what 2ndlook doesn’t appear to know is that islam genocided outright at least 9 crore/90 million Indians of the native, non-muslim religions. (The number of casualties of the islamic genocide of Hindus and other Indics is even referred to by Ali Sina from faithfreedom.) This takes into account only the early centuries of jihad against India and not modern islamic terrorism or partition or the east/west pakistan genocide of 3 million Bangladeshi Hindus.

    3. So why ignore islamic sins and speak only of “christian” sins? Are muslims not to be “demonised” but only christians are? Or will blind Indian nationalists finally admit that it’s islam and christianity that are both to blame for mass genocides in India and elsewhere? Else, unless there is a peculiar undisclosed bias going on at 2ndlook, why be milder on one when the other is _equally_ to blame?

    And why pretend the Indian government is _more_ to blame for the current jihad in Assam than islam itself is to blame for the jihad? Oh, the “poor” illegal jihadist bangladeshis macheting Hindu Bodos. Let us blame the treacherous Indian government’s deliberate negligence foremost and pretend islam is not the primary guilty party. It’s the other way around.

    And when Muslims can have pakistan, why do Indian nationalists still lecture that adherents of India’s native religions must continue to give islam “space/peace”, when islam like christianism will give neither. (Unless we pretend islam means “peace” instead of submission.) And why must Indians swear by the nationalists’ “secular” India, which is stolen bit by bit for christianity and islam, and which will tomorrow become mughalistan, just as nagaland is for “christ” today and kashmir is already taken by islam?

    Why lecture Hindus that they must not “demonise” islam (or elsewhere, that Hindus must not “demonise” christianity), even when muslims contine to genocide Hindus in India, just as christians genocide Hindus in the country’s northeast?

    Enough hypocrisy: criticise both equally or not at all. Both are the _same_ murderous ideology.

    Actually, why have a blogging tag called “islamic demonisation”? Why such apologetics for islam? Does islam not deserve to be outed for what it is? And why would _Hindus_ or the world’s other victims care about the perceived “demonisation” of islam anyway, when Hindus have suffered from far worse than mere “demonisation” at islam and christianity’s hands? And when both these ideologies moreover fund the demonisation of Hinduism in American and other universities? (“Hinduism” is used, since it refers to a religion that most certainly exists and is distinct from other religions, and therefore is deserving of a name, despite nationalists’ fervent denials of its existence. Or is that when Hindus in Pakistan went from 24% after partition to 1% now, and are still being persecuted, you will pretend this genocide didn’t happen because you people insist “Hindu” does not exist and therefore never existed?)

    4. Aurobindo (not a christian either) in “India’s Rebirth” also noted that Maulana Azad, the so-called Indian “nationalist” muslim, insisted muslims stay back in India for terms to be settled later:
    voi.org/books/ir/IR_part5.htm
    “October 7, 1940

    (A disciple:) It is because of the British divide-and-rule policy that we can’t unite.

    (Aurobindo:) Nonsense! Was there unity in India before the British rule?

    (The disciple:) But now since our national consciousness is more developed there is more chance of unity if the British don’t bolster up Jinnah and his Muslim claims.

    (Aurobindo:) Does Jinnah want unity?… What he wants is independence for Muslims and if possible rule over India. That is the old spirit…. But why is it expected that Muslims will be so accommodating? Everywhere minorities are claiming their rights. Of course, there may be some Muslims who are different, more nationalistic in outlook: even [Maulana] Azad has his own terms, only he sees Indian unity first and will settle those terms afterwards.”

    5. Thus, when Elst refers to Maulana Azad’s reasons for insisting on staying behind in India, he quotes directly from Azad to show Azad’s intent:

    voi.org/books/negaind/ch2.htm
    ‘Maulana Azad’s pleas for Hindu-Muslim co-operation had an esoteric meaning, clear enough for Muslims but invisible for wilfully gullible non-Muslims like his colleagues in the Congress leadership. Azad declared that Hindu-Muslim co- operation was in complete conformity with the Prophet’s vision, for “Mohammed had also made a treaty with the Jews of Madina”. He certainly had, but the practical impact of this treaty was that within a few years, two of the three Jewish clans in Medina had ben chased away, and the third clan had been massacred to the last man (the second clan had only been saved by the intervention of other Medinese leaders, for Mohammed had wanted to kill them too). Maulana Azad could mention Mohammed’s treaty with the Jews as a model for Hindu-Muslim co-operation only because he was confident that few Hindus were aware of the end of the story, and that better-informed Hindus honoured a kind of taboo on criticism of Islam and its Prophet.’

    While I’m no fan of Elst myself, he can’t be criticised on this observation. Nor the ones he makes at
    voi.org/20090829221/koenraadelst/column-koenraadelst/jinnah,authorofthepartition/page-3.html

    ‘Most Muslim leaders at the time were motivated by the communal concern for furthering Muslim interests, but this could take very different forms depending on their analysis of the power equation. Jinnah as a modern man estimated that democracy was here to stay, and that consequently numbers were decisive. In this view, Muslims in a Hindu-majority country would be out of power and should secede from it to create a state for themselves or at least one in which they would be the majority. But the religiously orthodox Deoband school reasoned differently: in the Middle Ages, Muslims were a far smaller minority and yet they ruled over the Hindus. Damn democracy and restore the Islamic empire, was the position of Deobandis like Maulana Maudoodi. And of the most famous Deobandi, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, often falsely presented as a “nationalist Muslim”, but in fact a clever Islamist strategist who exploited Gandhi’s and Nehru’s eagerness to somehow find a nationalist Muslim somewhere. With his direct experience of the Congress leaders’ gullibility regarding Islam, he knew that there was no “Hindu majority” that would oppress the Muslims. On the contrary, Muslims were getting all kinds of priviliges (Gandhi, with Azad’s support, even offered Jinnah the option of forming an all-Muslim government as reward for abandoning the Partition scheme), and if they played their cards well, they could become the dominant community with their 25%, percentage which would only grow and become a majority in the end.

    Jinnah wanted Pakistan as a secure basis from which a later generation could perhaps conquer the rest of India, Azad wanted to give the Muslim community a strond and eventually dominant position in a united India. Both were cynical and determined Muslim communalists, but their strategies were different. With hindsight, we may judge that Azad was a more far-sighted strategist, for the conduct of Hindu politicians in remainder-India proves that they are no match for any Muslim pressures, not from the one in seven in remainder-India, let alone from a Muslim community that would comprise one in three inhabitants of a united India. Those are the angles from which the Jinnah phenomenon can be understood: the inter-Muslim debate over which scenario would best serve Muslim interests. But no one is bringing them up in the present quarrels over personalized matters such as the relative merits and demerits of Nehru and Patel. Just as the Congress leaders back then failed to weigh the situation in those terms, with the result that their attempts to prevent partition were based on sentiment rather than on a proper facts-based analysis, and were doomed to be ineffectual.’

    Elst has written a lot worth criticising, including his passing over (and therefore utter minimisation) of what the British did to Indians. However, the apologetics for islam on this blog is a crime too. All enemies need to be exposed. Not just the christian british. (By the way, having a tag called “islamic demonisation” _is_ apologetics: islam and christianity have genocided people all over they world. They _deserve_ to get banned by humanity just as nazism is banned. No amount of “demonisation” will ever do sufficient justice to their inhumanity and unending crimes against humanity.)

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 6, 2012 at 8:32 pm

      First a thanks. Thanks for your lecture.

      Next a small note. Normally, in modern India we don’t publicly use individual religious identity – but I am going to break the norm here – to expose Catholic-Christian Elst.

      Coming to your lecture. We Indians are good at making up our own lectures. We dont need lectures from passing strangers, from anyone who hides behind proxy servers, does not reveal, name, nationality, motivation (apparent or implied).

      Partition and British Raj is not a vague general topic that anyone on earth can discuss – like the Advantages of Meat Eating or Benefits of Vegetarianism. This is specific to India – and there are interested parties.

      Catholic-Christian Elst’s interest is revealed. He is protecting his Christian Brothers. I see no reason why we need to take any lectures from him.

      Catholic-Christian Elst is a tool!

      Of the elites who is trying to find safe harbour for his Christian Masters and ‘Hindu’ clients, who wish to take advantage of Indians with Christian businesses out to exploit Indians.

      Catholic-Christian Elst is in no position to scatter advice looking at the great success that the EU is making of itself, on how to stay together, live together.

      Or look at Catholic-Christian Elst’s own country. A piddly little country like Belgium cannot manage to stay together – Walloon and Flemish. Both Christians, both White. Smaller than Maharashtra, they want to divide the country.

      Or look at Belgium’s record in Congo or the murder of Patrice Lumumba, I would hesitate to accord any position or place to Catholic-Christian Elst to give any advice to Indians – who are living with two nuclear powers, one of them Muslim, funded, aided, supported in all nefarious activities by the world’s only Super power – a Christian nation. So, by proxy we are having to deal with three nuclear powers in the neighbourhood.

      Catholic-Christian Elst is needed more at home – where EU is undergoing an existential crisis. Let him earn his spurs at home – and then apply for an advisory position here in India.

      Coming to academic points you are making.

      hide under mere term “imperialism” the _islamic_ drive of the deobandi to eventually try for jihad in India?

      Imperialism and Jihad – is there a difference.

      Especially in the context of Indian political philisophy (Bharattantra from herefater).

      Islam teaches dar-ul-islam vs dar-ul-harb, the british didn’t teach them that

      Similar to religious /racial persecution. Same Desert Bloc ideas – adapted in different contexts.

      british didn’t partition Afghanistan from India, the muslimsof afghanistan did that

      Get your history right.

      Britain lost Afghanistan.

      Afghanistan was last ruled by Maharaja Ranjit Singh. After his death the British used the Indian base to weaken the Sikh rule – and were themselves incapable of capturing Afghanistan. The last time they tried this was after WWI, in 1919, when idle soldiers of the British-Indian Army from the all over the world were sent to Afghanistan, only to be beaten back.

      When it suited them, the christian Britain certainly encouraged and even facilitated islam’s existing propensity and eagerness for jihad

      By its very nature Desert Bloc factions compete with other to separate and surge ahead based on a sharp, defined groups.

      Before Napoleon’s secularization and mediatization process, Holy Roman Empire (controlled by the Church) was about 1000 pieces – and Europe was many more.

      So, separatism as an evil is a rather modern, contextual value – and not necessarily good or bad. So, to ascribe any value-load to that is puerile

      just like the country’s current christian government continues to encourage and facilitate the existing jihad and islamic terrorism against Hindus today.

      Silly commentary. Anyway, we don’t need anonymous commentariat on India. We will declare doors open, when India is intellectually bankrupt to need anonymous commentariat from strangers.

      But no need to pretend that the tendency to jihad doesn’t already exist in islam and hence in muslims of the subcontinent (or those of the rest of the world). Just like the same tendency exists in christianity and hence christians.

      You are missing out an essential element.

      It is called leadership. Till 1940, after the British made Jinnah their chief recruiting agent for British Indian Army, The Muslim League did not get any support from Muslims. The Muslim League became Muslim only after the efforts of the British to make the League relevant. When some members of the League challenged Jinnah, Linlithgow intervened and read them the riot act.

      After one such meeting, the Viceroy writes on October 5, 1939: “He thanked me with much graciousness for what I had done to assist him in keeping his party together and expressed great gratitude for this.

      We are talking of Partition. So, don’t make a global mess of this discussion. Specific geography. India. Specific time 1900-1947, when the idea of Partition became reality.

      Did Muslims come out on the street on their own demanding Pakistan before 1940. So, unless you have links or data, you and Catholic-Christian Elst cannot claim that the British were innocent – and Muslims wanted jihad or Partition.

      “British were not the worst says Koenraad Elst. They killed some people. That is all. Just some fifty times more than Islamic raiders and invaders.”

      This is wrong, as is the number: the British didn’t kill a ‘mere’ 2 crore Indians. The christian British empire genocided _at least_ 7 crore/70 million Indians. Either outright, or through famine and disease.

      This is a matter of computation, estimation and sources. You are like Catholic-Christian Elst giving neither sources or logic for this claim. You expect to be believed.

      Misplaced expectation. The burden of proof is on you.

      For my statements, this blog contains enough links on precise estimates, numbers on who killed how many. Going by simple Pareto’s Law, if we account for the major 80% of the massacres; the balance 20% will automatically fall in place. It is valid statistical model.

      However, what 2ndlook doesn’t appear to know is that islam genocided outright at least 9 crore/90 million Indians of the native, non-muslim religions. (The number of casualties of the islamic genocide of Hindus and other Indics is even referred to by Ali Sina from faithfreedom.) This takes into account only the early centuries of jihad against India and not modern islamic terrorism or partition or the east/west pakistan genocide of 3 million Bangladeshi Hindus.

      Same as above. a matter of computation, estimation and sources.

      So why ignore islamic sins and speak only of “christian” sins? Are muslims not to be “demonised” but only christians are?

      Or will blind Indian nationalists finally admit that it’s islam and christianity that are both to blame for mass genocides in India and elsewhere? Else, unless there is a peculiar undisclosed bias going on at 2ndlook, why be milder on one when the other is _equally_ to blame?

      Islam and Christianity are part of the Desert Bloc – and their leaderships work and behave in the same manner. Going by history, Islamic leadership as a threat to India is over. But the Christian threat is clear and present.

      So, if your idea is historic accounting, count me in out of that.

      Related to Partition and British legacy.

      As I see it, Indians for long did not see the Islamic threat – and the Marathas even propped up the silly Moghul Empire – and made a useless Bahadur Shah Zafar as the leader, now rationalized that it was in name only.

      Same record playing now also – except we are hearing the Christian side of the record. We are living on past enmities – while the present enemy is being falsely presented as an ally.

      As far as I am concerned, you are guilty by association – and your locus standi is unclear.

      And why pretend the Indian government is _more_ to blame for the current jihad in Assam than islam itself is to blame for the jihad? Oh, the “poor” illegal jihadist bangladeshis macheting Hindu Bodos. Let us blame the treacherous Indian government’s deliberate negligence foremost and pretend islam is not the primary guilty party. It’s the other way around.

      This is about the British and Partition. Stick to that.

      And when Muslims can have pakistan, why do Indian nationalists still lecture that adherents of India’s native religions must continue to give islam “space/peace”, when islam like christianism will give neither. (Unless we pretend islam means “peace” instead of submission.) And why must Indians swear by the nationalists’ “secular” India, which is stolen bit by bit for christianity and islam, and which will tomorrow become mughalistan, just as nagaland is for “christ” today and kashmir is already taken by islam?

      One – I could talk of India does not have any native religion. Religion by their nature and definition need One founder, One book, One God, One Holiday, One Language etc. Even Sikhism has 10 gurus, the Guru Granth Saheb draws from numerous gurus, teachers and religious texts of the world.

      There are only three religions in the world – Desert Bloc religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

      But I have no idea who you are – and hence dont need to explain why Indians ‘give islam “space/peace”.

      None of your business.

      This discussion is about the British role in Partition. Stick to that.

      Why lecture Hindus that they must not “demonise” islam (or elsewhere, that Hindus must not “demonise” christianity), even when muslims contine to genocide Hindus in India, just as christians genocide Hindus in the country’s northeast? Enough hypocrisy: criticise both equally or not at all. Both are the _same_ murderous ideology. Actually, why have a blogging tag called “islamic demonisation”? Why such apologetics for islam? Does islam not deserve to be outed for what it is? And why would _Hindus_ or the world’s other victims care about the perceived “demonisation” of islam anyway, when Hindus have suffered from far worse than mere “demonisation” at islam and christianity’s hands? And when both these ideologies moreover fund the demonisation of Hinduism in American and other universities?

      This is about British Role in Partition. Stick to that.

      “Hinduism” is used, since it refers to a religion that most certainly exists and is distinct from other religions, and therefore is deserving of a name, despite nationalists’ fervent denials of its existence.

      Yes, it is a British creation. Some people do proudly wear that tag.

      Or is that when Hindus in Pakistan went from 24% after partition to 1% now, and are still being persecuted, you will pretend this genocide didn’t happen because you people insist “Hindu” does not exist and therefore never existed?)

      This is post-Partition. The topic is British Role in Partition. Stick to that.

      4. Aurobindo (not a christian either) in “India’s Rebirth” also noted that Maulana Azad, the so-called Indian “nationalist” muslim, insisted muslims stay back in India for terms to be settled later:
      voi.org/books/ir/IR_part5.htm
      “October 7, 1940

      (A disciple:) It is because of the British divide-and-rule policy that we can’t unite.

      (Aurobindo:) Nonsense! Was there unity in India before the British rule?

      (The disciple:) But now since our national consciousness is more developed there is more chance of unity if the British don’t bolster up Jinnah and his Muslim claims.

      (Aurobindo:) Does Jinnah want unity?… What he wants is independence for Muslims and if possible rule over India. That is the old spirit…. But why is it expected that Muslims will be so accommodating? Everywhere minorities are claiming their rights. Of course, there may be some Muslims who are different, more nationalistic in outlook: even [Maulana] Azad has his own terms, only he sees Indian unity first and will settle those terms afterwards.”

      5. Thus, when Elst refers to Maulana Azad’s reasons for insisting on staying behind in India, he quotes directly from Azad to show Azad’s intent:

      voi.org/books/negaind/ch2.htm
      ‘Maulana Azad’s pleas for Hindu-Muslim co-operation had an esoteric meaning, clear enough for Muslims but invisible for wilfully gullible non-Muslims like his colleagues in the Congress leadership. Azad declared that Hindu-Muslim co- operation was in complete conformity with the Prophet’s vision, for “Mohammed had also made a treaty with the Jews of Madina”. He certainly had, but the practical impact of this treaty was that within a few years, two of the three Jewish clans in Medina had ben chased away, and the third clan had been massacred to the last man (the second clan had only been saved by the intervention of other Medinese leaders, for Mohammed had wanted to kill them too). Maulana Azad could mention Mohammed’s treaty with the Jews as a model for Hindu-Muslim co-operation only because he was confident that few Hindus were aware of the end of the story, and that better-informed Hindus honoured a kind of taboo on criticism of Islam and its Prophet.’

      While I’m no fan of Elst myself, he can’t be criticised on this observation. Nor the ones he makes at
      voi.org/20090829221/koenraadelst/column-koenraadelst/jinnah,authorofthepartition/page-3.html

      ‘Most Muslim leaders at the time were motivated by the communal concern for furthering Muslim interests, but this could take very different forms depending on their analysis of the power equation. Jinnah as a modern man estimated that democracy was here to stay, and that consequently numbers were decisive. In this view, Muslims in a Hindu-majority country would be out of power and should secede from it to create a state for themselves or at least one in which they would be the majority. But the religiously orthodox Deoband school reasoned differently: in the Middle Ages, Muslims were a far smaller minority and yet they ruled over the Hindus. Damn democracy and restore the Islamic empire, was the position of Deobandis like Maulana Maudoodi. And of the most famous Deobandi, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, often falsely presented as a “nationalist Muslim”, but in fact a clever Islamist strategist who exploited Gandhi’s and Nehru’s eagerness to somehow find a nationalist Muslim somewhere. With his direct experience of the Congress leaders’ gullibility regarding Islam, he knew that there was no “Hindu majority” that would oppress the Muslims. On the contrary, Muslims were getting all kinds of priviliges (Gandhi, with Azad’s support, even offered Jinnah the option of forming an all-Muslim government as reward for abandoning the Partition scheme), and if they played their cards well, they could become the dominant community with their 25%, percentage which would only grow and become a majority in the end.

      Jinnah wanted Pakistan as a secure basis from which a later generation could perhaps conquer the rest of India, Azad wanted to give the Muslim community a strond and eventually dominant position in a united India. Both were cynical and determined Muslim communalists, but their strategies were different. With hindsight, we may judge that Azad was a more far-sighted strategist, for the conduct of Hindu politicians in remainder-India proves that they are no match for any Muslim pressures, not from the one in seven in remainder-India, let alone from a Muslim community that would comprise one in three inhabitants of a united India. Those are the angles from which the Jinnah phenomenon can be understood: the inter-Muslim debate over which scenario would best serve Muslim interests. But no one is bringing them up in the present quarrels over personalized matters such as the relative merits and demerits of Nehru and Patel. Just as the Congress leaders back then failed to weigh the situation in those terms, with the result that their attempts to prevent partition were based on sentiment rather than on a proper facts-based analysis, and were doomed to be ineffectual.’

      Elst didn’t put this quote anywhere in the post. Elst is the author. Let him supply his own quotes.

      We are discussing Partition? Are you saying that

      1. Muslim leaders wanted Partition and therefore bad

      or

      2. Muslims leaders didn’t want Partition therefore bad.

      I have a sneaky feeling that you and Catholic-Christian Elst are saying both – and in love with your own voice, without making sense.

      Elst has written a lot worth criticising, including his passing over (and therefore utter minimisation) of what the British did to Indians. However, the apologetics for islam on this blog is a crime too.

      I think you don’t understand the meaning for apology.

      Find one apology for anybody in this blog. In fact this blog is anti-apology for and by anyone – seeing it as a peculiar Desert Bloc tool to absolve oneself from any guilt.

      Not accepted.

      I will repeat the point made above.

      The topic is British Role in Partition. Stick to that.

      All enemies need to be exposed. Not just the christian british. (By the way, having a tag called “islamic demonisation” _is_ apologetics: islam and christianity have genocided people all over they world. They _deserve_ to get banned by humanity just as nazism is banned. No amount of “demonisation” will ever do sufficient justice to their inhumanity and unending crimes against humanity.

      I am repeating. Thanks for your lecture. We Indians don’t need lectures passing strangers. Come back some other time – after you understand and respect the sensibilities of the forum.

      • Kishan said, on August 7, 2012 at 1:06 pm

        Well played Anurag Sanghi, ducking all inconvenient questions.
        A question is creeping in my mind also. Partition is a fact, no posturing of one side or the other can deny it.
        But does the responsibility lie only on the English shoulders ? O.K. they may have lit the fire. But did they create the fuel, or could they ? The fuel was there to be lit, spark was provided by the English, was it not ? Even the giant personality of the Mahatma could not control the fire, the fuel was so dangerously combustible, was it not ?

        • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 7, 2012 at 1:17 pm
          Kishan – I am willing to answer all questions that have I have answers to.

          But there is a spirit and method!

          First, there has to be willingness and an open mind?

          After that, a 2ndlook is possible.

          If you have an open mind and want to take a 2ndlook, raise questions. I think you will not find a btter forum to raise questions – and get answers.

          We have some thinking and honest participants here over the last 6 years who have built this forum up. Many times I go to the forum – and get my answers here.

          Many times, forum members have saved me from going in the wrong direction. But, mostly by raising tough questions, they have pushed me and each other to come with interesting answers.

          This is not a public lavatory where strangers can come, dirty and walk away.

          • vv said, on August 7, 2012 at 5:17 pm

            “Many times, forum members have saved me from going in the wrong direction. But, mostly by raising tough questions, they have push me and each other to come with interesting answers.

            This is not a public lavatory where strangers can come, dirty and walk away.”

            Above is a classic yes and no. On one hand you want people to ask tough questions and on the other hand you claim not to be a public lavatory. You cannot have it both. Only in a public lavatory is where you get the tough questions. Not when you invite a guest to you house who is bound by honor not to give you grief.
            The only reason I comment on your site is because it is like public lavatory. It you up to you if you want to close your mind and force registration for your wah-wah buddies.

            And by they way, ‘whatever’ raises some important questions that I found very valuable. Even elementary arithmetic shows that by an exercise in numbers, more damage was done by your islamic buddies & their newly converted friends than the english. Maybe they force you to re-think or maybe it is easy for you to use labels like catholic-whatever. It is juvenile to use such terms and it was pure malice to blame hindutva for sufferings of folks chased away from kashmir, but maybe you resort to that because you have nothing else to defend your position with.
            It is always good to re-examine your position when you have nothing else by name-calling to back you up.

            • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 7, 2012 at 5:37 pm
              @VV

              If you have something to offer, something to bring to the table, do it.

              You want to take away something from the table – without bringing anything to the table, that too is OK.

              But don’t bring shit to the table.

              The only reason I comment on your site is because it is like public lavatory. It you up to you if you want to close your mind and force registration for your wah-wah buddies.

              You are welcome to make comments that make sense.

              You are welcome to make insensible comments also. Insensible comments and insensible commentators get the contempt that they deserve.

    • Kishan said, on August 7, 2012 at 6:18 am

      Salutations to ‘Whatever’ for calling a spade a spade without mincing any words. The sooner the Islam and Christian apologists in India realized their folly the better it is. But they would rather demonize the BJP for speaking the truth than realize that all that they are doing is helping further the agenda for conversion of Dar-ul-Harb to Dar-ul-Islam (creation of a Indian Christian State is not in the realm of possibility, not for any want of efforts but due to the shear numbers, although the Christians have been successful in creating Christian majority states in the north-eastern part of India).

  16. p p (@pinkyp18) said, on August 6, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Elst singing bhajans to british gods, and you are singing bhajans to Islamic raiders and invaders. I don’t see any difference between you and Elst. Just how Elst excuses crimes of British, you do same with Muslims.

  17. manu said, on August 7, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Lets say if Hinduism/dharmic thought was personified… Some of the characteristics of this man would be Respect everyone’s faith …
    No concept of conversion …
    No discrimination based on who n how you worship…

    Similarly the characteristics of 3 desert bloc men Sorry not 3 just 1 man with 3 masks would be
    convert to my ways or I will kill …
    My way is the best and only way…
    Discriminate if they are not like me…
    My land my religion.

    I hope there is no dispute about this between muslim lover hindus/Indians and muslim hating ones….

    You decide the old man from Belgium is closer to which one of these? He wants hindus only in Hindustan…. Hindu way or no way … Discriminate if they are not hindus ..One land one religion …
    Can his fans ask him or politely suggest to learn from hindus and remove the clause about conversions and non believers from Christianity first?

    Ok Lets do what he says. Do we as Hindus have the right tools to be able to carry out his command?

    First we need a way to convert someone to become a Hindu… For this we can send pundits from kashi,mathura and kanchi to mecca and rome to take inspiration from their conversion methods .. And so that no one thinks we are becoming like them we can hindunise this method by adding a tilak and kaleva thread etc…

    Next we need a divine source that justifies this conversion and mass killing of junta… Again we have no dearth of items on them just have to look beyond the Indus ..I mean gita is already there lets just tweak it for inspiration to wage jihad oops sorry dharm yudh (we are hindus we don’t jihad of course)

    Once we are done doing this Mr Belgium would be really happy… Guess what he would have found the 4rth mask for the man from Desert Bloc..

    The Belgian supporters say we hindus don’t fight.. Hmm so shivaji , Guru Gobind Singh, Kings of Vijaynagar , Ahoms, Rajputanas etc never fought? As far as history has recorded all of them were warriors par excellence… And none not one preached killing or driving out muslim junta from india …Did anyone of them go out and kill the villagers or city dwellers coz they were muslims? NO sir they dint coz they were fighting for dharma/Indic thought(a.k.a bharatantra) and not hindus…

    Bharat is the last place where the dharmic thought survives… will the indic thought loose and become desert bloc.. I have hope look at the choices the people of this land have made over the ages..Ram ,Krishan ,Budh, Mahavir,Guru nanak ,Gandhi etc … Don’t mistake them as mythology/spiritual/political icons they all were the protectors and warriors of bharattantra….

    And I hope with this intelligence imparted by our ancestors we will choose this blog over ….

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 7, 2012 at 9:52 am
      Are you not forgetting a new mask – It is the mask of the Liberal-Progressive-Western-English speaking person who thinks that whatever India has achieved in the last 65 years is nothing.

      West is Better. West is the new Mecca for them. Criticize India falsely, shamelessly, needlessly, without logic, with data, without reason – they will join in.

      Criticize West – and they hate it.

      I am giving below two twittergument that came my way. Both of the tweets assume that India will be a loser.

  18. Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 7, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Anurag,
    Congratulations for a perfectly befitting reply. I had this comment of “Whatever” landing in my inbox late last night, about to retire to catch my sleep. At the same time I was also contemplating on your note, “PS – I think, Elst does not deserve any more posts, for now. Bigger and better enemies of Bharat failed. What can Elst do – which others have not tried before?” It looks that God is on my side. Congratulations once again to God this time. Because I wish this fellow to be laid bare naked. Reason: You notice that after my comment here, everyone is coming out as if from a somnambulance. It needs a person like you to continue this pen jihad against such imposters.

    You know the Latin maxim, “Vox audita perit, littera scripta manet!” Hence the average mind need repeated reminders just like revisions during examinations. The average psychological I/Q demands it. The heard word gets lost but the written word is remembered. This principle is used in legal parlance also.

    I have no proof but this “Whatever” incarnate looks like Elst protege, my fifth or sixth sense dictates it. I had caught another apologist on your earlier post where I had seeked your permission and you were too kind to me for that. You may know, what I am meaning. He was advising me (not the first time) to reconsider my opinion of Elst. I cannot understand his wilful advice, “Where was I wrong in my deliberation”?

    “I think you don’t understand the meaning for apology.” I am glad that you have picked it up. I fully agree, he perhaps need to go back to convent school to relearn his English literature before indulging in lecture bashing. He doesn’t know what he is talking, just like my friend Elst.

    You will remeber that Belgium was recently equated to Iraq when they failed to form their government due to failure of leadership issue. It had their wives to declare “no sex” jihad against those eunuchs to send them packing. I liked that “sex jihad” and it augurs to suggest to the Islamists’ wives to follow the suit. Will they? I doubt since Quran legitimises the wife killing day or night; very kindly.

    Elst’s silly arguments are agog. He, a master of all, but jack of none, recently said, “Buddhists are not Hindus, because they say so.” This has few aspects. One it is a silly comment to start with. Second, again as you have repeatedly commented here, it does not give any data in support. Lastly it is definitely inflammatory and divisive. It certainly does not suffice to bring him classify for a “Noble Peace Prize”.

    He need to be exposed because of “chaltaa hai” silly attitude in an average Hindu, who needs a kick to awaken him. That is my justification to continue bashing and baiting Elst in the best interest of his gullible Hindus and Indian nation. Hence they need a punch to awaken them. Indian media as you know, are sold out item.

    Lastly “Whatever” word fitting in the style of Elst ling-uism, he states, “While I’m no fan of Elst myself,” but you are Elst as far as I can make out by my deficient intel box.

    Look forward to more literary genius from you on this point. God bless

  19. vv said, on August 7, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    “Kashmiri Pandits were driven off from the Valley during a Hindutva Governor – Jagmohan – who had the entire might of the Indian State at his disposal. What did he do? ”

    You see, I was suspecting this for quite a while and the above sentence confirms that.
    Your urge to rant against europeans (& elst) is so great that you suspend logic and common sense. It is a shame that you said something like this. Twisting history and people to fit your needs of the hour. You lost my respect and while I wish you the best, I believe an apology to Jagmohan & Hindutva both is in order. I do not expect one since you seem to be too far gone.
    You have good ideas, and you make your case well. I enjoyed reading your work and the thinking it induces, but combining fact & fiction like you did above undoes all that.

    For the record, Jagmohan was more famous for being the gandhi family lackey for most of his career. He was more famous for being sanjay gandhi’s go-to boy during the emergency in delhi area. Assigning him the tag of hindutva is a joke. You might as well assign the same tag to your mahatma & his adopted nehru family whose lack of self-respect is so great that they would misspell a Ghandy parsi name to confuse the peasants into voting for them.
    And the might of your mahatma & nehru ridden indian state counted for nothing in saving its own citizens from fleeing kashmir and becoming refugees in their own country. The might of your indian state counts for nothing for the current jehadi rioters in Assam or for a bunch of 20 year olds to shoot up mumbai.

    the english, for all their faults, at least made an effort to protect their gunga dins. Your indian state would do nothing to protect their most loyal citizens in an insurgency-ridden state. the message the rest of your ‘average indians’ heard is loud and clear. Unless you are related to gandi family or belong to the ‘right’ community, you are just cannon fodder & have no rights.

    On the other hand, your beloved ‘mahatma’ is guilty of a crime much worse than churchill. you mahatma ‘knew’ very clearly at least 8 months in advance that partition was inevitable. yet he did nothing to protect the interests of the people who looked up to him & believed in him in areas of current pakistan from losing their lives & property.
    This mahatma fellow & his cohorts could have at least done an orderly exchange, used the leverage of moslems population in india as hostage to secure the property & lives of those who were loyally voting for them. Instead, in these jehadi lovers simply handed of those who believed in them to the butchers and walked away. What kind of a sick soul would do that? I guess, that is why he gets to be a mahatma…. normal human beings would have simply killed themselves at even a thought of such a betrayal.
    Records show that folks did not even know which side they landed on even 3 weeks after partition. They simply had no clue what was going to hit them while their ‘leader’ knew exactly this for quite some time.

    What kind of bharat-tantra did your gandi boy employ for disaster of ’48. And whose interests was he serving? Why blame Jagmohan for the refugee crisis when it was clear that the might of your indian state counts for nothing against a determined population? And on what basis do you claim that it was a minority of kashmiris who chased the hindus away? I was there then and observed the exact opposite. Just a reading of Kashmiri media at that time is enough to invalidate your claim.

    It is a shame that Latpat Rai and Veer Savarkar are quoted regarding moslem homeland totally out of context. This is what happens when you start google book search and skim just a few pages. You then equate them with Jinnah and at the same time make no mention of the racist khilafat association of your boy gandi and what it did to the country. Your ignorance to consider the context can be forgiven, but tagging Hindutva on Jagmohan is not ignorance. It is pure malice and you know it.

    An apology for blaming hindutva or by association Jagmohan with the tragedy of folks becoming refugees in their own country in spite of the “might of indian state” is the very least you can do. What you said was extremely insensitive since the parties you blame were in fact victims themselves and have been going out of their way to provide for the refugees in delhi, jammu and elsewhere while your “might of Indian state” gives a damn about these people.
    Just walk into a refugee camp and ask if you have any doubts. Google will not help you here.

    What next? Maybe it hindutva that is preventing these people from going back to reclaim their property which their jehadi neighbors have been maintaining on their behalf. Hold on, hold on, maybe it is against bharat-tantra to go back and reclaim your property because it is a very non-secular thing to do….maybe the power of hindutva is so much that the might of indian state + the jehadi love cannot get these refugees to go back to their home. Bharat-tantra should be used to fight this evil hindutva. You should use these themes to fit you arguments next time.
    What a shame!

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 7, 2012 at 5:30 pm
      @VV

      To say the least I am surprised.

      Or is it that I should not be – and expect these kinds of reactions and reviews from long-standing readers and participants like you. Go brandish your Right Wing positions, partisanship, et al somewhere else. At 2ndlook, let us stay within facts, positions and reason.

      1. Firstly – It is no crime to be partially informed – and to admit it. On the Kashmiri Pandit story, I have been upfront on saying my understanding is limited. That is reason to desist from raising the topic with me as I have little to offer – or offer inputs, which you do in a most offensive and derogatory manner.

      I completely and totally reject your criticism and inputs.

      Come back with something better – in a better tone.

      2. I have not said a word about Savarkar. I know little, say nothing and offer zilch.

      I have linked my post where Lala Lajpat Rai’s support for Muslim homeland – (note: the word called Pakistan was not even in existence at that time), is being twisted. It is a clearly nuanced post which tries to capture the complexity of the positions of that time, as British loyalists, Congress, Hindu Mahasabha, IML were all jockeying for ousting the British in the 1930 – without any ulterior motives.

      Better read that before you start frothing.

      3. On my urges

      Your urge to rant against europeans (& elst) is so great that you suspend logic and common sense.

      I wonder where and what is your urge to defend someone who has the temerity to speak in the most abominable manner about Indians? Is your love for the ‘foreign’, White, Euro so great that you curl up and and cravenly accept name calling by this poseur?

      Anyway, for someone living in a foreign land, it possibly has become second nature for you to accept 2ndclass treatment. Especially in the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. Hence, you cannot have anything to say about Catholic-Christian Elst, his lack of integrity.

      It is also not out of place to wonder why you need a foreigner to make your cases? Are your types, VV, so incapable that your types hire incompetent hacks like Catholic-Christian Elst to promote your non-case? And when a hack like Catholic-Christian Elst is caught out for his incompetence, you come out frothing and foaming at your mouth, as though that will hide the lack of either knowledge or the attitude?

      Your comment lacks coherence. Get your wits together. Come back, if you have some thoughts, inputs and logic. If it is anything else, take it someplace else.

      • vv said, on August 7, 2012 at 8:11 pm

        Anuraag,
        “That is reason to desist from raising the topic with me as I have little to offer – or offer inputs, which you do in a most offensive and derogatory manner. ”

        Personal attacks aside, it was the offensive manner in which you described Jagmohan that prompted me to respond. It was neither factual nor reasonable. Too bad you will not recognize that you made a mistake by holding an innocent man and an innocent organization responsible for the murder & mayhem and absolving the indian state & gandi family of the same.

        While responding to your personal attacks based on my current location is very appealing, my job as a second-class mole keeps me busy and does not pay to respond to personal attacks. I only get paid by how much I support Jagmohan.
        So, realizing that I made my point and have overstayed my welcome, I’ll excuse myself and leave.
        Sincerely catholic-cristian vv

        • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 7, 2012 at 10:06 pm
          @ catholic-cristian vv

          After you tone of writing your mahatma, your state, your ‘average indians’ your Indian 10 times in about 1000 words, gives you no grounds to claim to any insult and injury.

          If any, you deserve it.

          If it not your Indian State, then it someone else’s home. Honour it, and speak with care and politeness. I have no idea of origin, nationality, religion, or for that matter anything about you at all.

          But when you come barging in, without data, facts, subject, and claim indulgence, you get none.

          Then you make a completely artificial excuse that my comments on Jagmohan got you worked up. On one side you called him a Sanjay Gandhi lackey – and then you felt bad that I misrepresented him. If you were that kind of person you would not take the tone of writing your mahatma, your state, your ‘average indians’ your Indian 10 times in about 1000 words.

          Go take your dirty laundry – with all its ‘skid marks’, somewhere else.

          You have deliberately offended – and for a cause that is known to you.

      • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 9, 2012 at 6:11 pm
        Let me clear. Factually, I am right. On Jagmohan and BJP.

        I am absolutely, positively and completely right.

        My admission of mistake was to allow extraneous issues to hijack the main topic. No more, no less. This is in the nature of a clarification. Any debate on this can be at any of the many Kashmir Posts that published on 2ndlook and Quicktake forums.

        BJP’s Right Wing elements, (BJP too has many kinds of factions), embraces Sanjay Gandhi’s thinking and methods. It is no coincidence that Varun Gandhi (of haath kaat deenge fame) is Sanjay Gandhi’s political and family heir – and is in the BJP.

        Jagmohan was in-charge of Delhi’s ‘development’, which in Sanjay Gandhi’s language meant, banish the poor.

        1. Make them invisible. (Demolish slums).

        2. Why should the poor have children, when they cant feed themselves? (Vasectomize them, make the men impotent, under FP programs).

        Jagmohan, a chameleon that he is, goes after the rising son / sun. First it was Sanjay Gandhi. Then BJP.

        The exodus of Pandits from Kashmir started in Jagmohan’s watch, with a Government that was supported and propped up by the BJP. Thus for BJP (and their supporters) to distance themselves from the Kashmiri Pandit exodus is completely false.

        The fact that this has remained unaddressed, for 22 years, is a severe indictment of a collusive polity – which democracy engenders, but is denied by democracy’s supporters.

        There are two accounts of events (edited), one by Balraj Madhok ( senior BJP-Jana Sangh member /ideologue), which makes apparent the Jagmohan-BJP closeness. The other is a commentary by a Kashmiri-sympathizer.

        Governor’s rule was imposed on Jammu and Kashmir State in March, 1988. Governor Jagmohan who then assumed all executive powers acquitted himself very well. He toned up the administration and accelerated the pace of development in all the three regions of the state.

        The release of the five top terrorists in exchange for Dr. Rubaiyya in Srinagar made it clear that the situation had beccome too grim and unless drastic steps were taken, Kashmir might be lost. The public outcry forced V.P. Government to send Jagmohan as Governor of the State for the second time. Jagmohan knew too much about Farooq Abdullah and his team which included some of “Pakistan’s favored politicians.” Farooq therefore resigned clearing the way for imposition of governor’s rule.

        Jagmohan with his commitment to national interests, deep understanding of men and affairs in Kashmir and vast administrative experience, was able to turn the tables on Pak agents and terrorist within a short time. This was not to the liking of the friends of Pakistan, and pseudo secularists. Bhartya Janta Party (B.J.P.) which, with a strength of about 90 members in Lok Sabha, held a whip hand, lacked proper leadership. It went on harping on keeping V.P. Singh government going instead of taking a principled and firm stand on any issues of national importance during the period of eleven months when it sustained V.P. Government. It withdraw its support on the issue of the arrest of its leader L. K. Advani and not on any substantive national issue. Had it taken a firm and unequivocal stand, it could have foiled the conspiracy to remove Jagmohan from Kashmir.

        Exit of Jagmohan in May 1990 came as a relief to Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir.

        Jagmohan has given a detailed account of the growth of insurgency in Kashmir and the role of Sh. Abdullah and Farooq Abudllah on the one side and an indecisive leadership at New Delhi on the other in creating and aggravating the prevailing situation in Kashmir in his book, “My Frozen Turbulence in Kashmir.” Because of the inside information and documents available to him, his book is an authentic record of developments in Kashmir since 1981.

        According to him, the role played by the two Abdullahs has been very dubious throughout. Farooq had been a part of the JKLF outfit during his long sojourn in Britain. His speeches of those days which were repeated by the Pak Radio in January 1990, clearly gave out his commitment to “Independence” for Kashmir. According to Farooq’s own admission before the India mediapersons in 1990, he had asked his National Conference workers to go to Pakistan to get training in arms. They have been collaborating with JKLF insurgents. It is significant that during the years when Zia’s Operation TOPAC has been taking shape in the valley, Farooq has been keeping away from Kashmir. He has been spending most of his time in UK since 1988.

        Jagmohan has taken George Fernandes whom V.P. Singh appointed his Minister for Kashmir Affairs also to task for clandestine meetings with insurgents over his head and for helping those who have been carrying on a campaign of disinformation in favor of insurgents in India and the world. His indictment of successive governments of India is as incisive as his indictment of Abdullah.

        He has made it clear that the “infirmities and negative forces that beset the Indian social, political and moral order and are at root cause of Kashmir troubles can be removed only by a reformed rejuvenated and motivated India with a new vision and not by an Indian that has become a hunting ground for small politics and whose shallow and superficial approach has exceeded all limits in Kashmir.”

        Things have been deteriorating since the recall of Jagmohan from Kashmir.
        via Kashmir: The Storm Center of the World by Bal Raj Madhok.

        someday it would be imminent to probe who send Jagmohan–the person charged with presiding over maximum killings of unarmed and innocent Kashmiri civilians in shortest time–as Governor of Jammu and Kashmir.National Conference has always blamed Prime Minister VP Singh’s Home Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed as patron of Jagmohan and main signatory to the decision on sending him to Kashmir. However, on his return to state politics in 1996 and on formation of Peoples Democratic Party few years later Mufti built his entire political discourse on the wrongs committed by Jagmohan He has remained largely successful in making Kashmiris believe that Jagmohan was not his man.

        Jagmohan is one such character in the post-1989 theatre of turmoil Kashmiris would not forget easily. Twenty-one years down the line, truth behind Jagmohan still remains a contradiction. Mufti has maintained silence all these years. If he confirms that he indeed was responsible for sending Jagmohan to Kashmir that would be seen by the Kashmiris as confession of biggest crime of last 22 years. And a denial would show his authority as home minister in poor light. Thus, the silence. Dealing with the truth in their own ways, two recent books written by authors of eminence and eyewitnesses closely associated with Kashmir in the days of turmoil have brought to us ‘fact’ about Jagmohan’s appointment in complete contradiction to each other. Inder Kumar Gujral, as politician and Wajahat Habibullah, as bureaucrat, enjoys a place of high eminence in India and are held in exceptionally high esteem in Kashmir. They are widely believed to be sympathisers of Kashmiris and two of the few people who know more truth than others. Unfortunately, their account of Jagmohan’s appointment leaves one struggling with same traditional question of Kashmir –whose truth is ‘the truth’?

        Gujral’s truth
        A key Minister in VP Singh government charged with responsibilities of tough negotiations in Kashmir–for example, the release of Rubaiya Sayeed –Inder Kumar Gujral says without any regrets that he was the one and only person responsible for sending Jagmohan to Kashmir. In his autobiography Matters of Discretion, Gujral has devoted a full chapter ‘Governor for Kashmir’ dealing with this controversy. Recalling the breakdown of civilian administration in Kashmir, Gujral says, out of deep concern for the situation, he recommended Jagmohan’s name to take charge as Jammu and Kashmir Governor. Dwelling heavily on his personal admiration for Jagmohan, he says the proposal was outrightly rejected by Prime Minister VP Singh as well as another important Minister Arun Nehru. Then Gujral takes us to the boardroom discussions where this issue was discussed the whole night at VP Singh’s residence. Besides PM Singh and himself, he recalls Mufti, Arun Nehru and the Cabinet Secretary as three other participants in the meeting. He says when discussions assumed to deep political contours, the Cabinet Secretary was sent home. The meeting went on inconclusive till 5am when VP asked Ministers to go homes to return after a quick nap. The meeting resumes at 8am. Gujral recollects many questions raised by VP Singh and Arun Nehru and also recalls some issues raised by George Fernandes, another Minister. In the course of entire boardroom discussions ended with decision on sending Jagmohan to Kashmir, Gujral makes just one mention of Mufti. “What Farooq Abdullah (Chief Minister) might think of this decision as Jagmohan was the one who engineered fall of his government in 1984”, Gujral quotes Mufti as asking with concern. He concludes the chapter by saying that after hard discussions he (Gujral) was able to secure Jagmohan’s posting to Kashmir.

        Habibullah’s truth
        Contrary to Gujral’s complete exoneration of Mufti, in his book My Kashmir, Wajahat Habibullah claims with absolute confidence that sending Jagmohan as Jammu and Kashmir Governor was not only a choice but also a carefully thought out political design of the Prime Minister VP Singh and Home Minister of that day –Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, a person who championed the cause of human rights, democracy and governance some eight years after the Governor crushed these three desires My Kashmir is a heavily footnoted book and elsewhere on around three-hundred pages the author has quoted many sources and cited personal interviews to establish veracity of his claims. However, on sending Jagmohan to Kashmir he has made completely sweeping statement with absolute confidence that Mufti was the man behind Jagmohan. In the chapter Implosion, Habibullah says, “from Mufti’s point of view, the principal benefit (of sending Jagmohan to Kashmir) would be in forcing Farooq, whom he disliked, from the office. He also builds a context by recalling his mother Hamida Habibullah’s conversation with Begum Akbar Jahan where the latter talked about deep mutual distrust between Mufti and Farooq. Having talked about Mufti’s political ambitions –“with NC ousted, Mufti could also dream of returning to state as Chief Minister, a vision he had cherished since 1977– Habibullah goes on suggest a corruption angle: “His (Farooq’s) resignation would also enable Mufti to develop direct channels of contacts with engineers and forest conservators serving in the state government’.
        Even as Gujral claims that until convinced by him the prime minister was initially opposed to Jagmohan’s appointment, Habibullah suggests a clear design behind this. He says VP appointed Mufti as Home Minister to send a message of trust among India’s Muslims which later sought to balance with Hindu nationalists by sending Jagmohan to Kashmir. “…the Hindu nationalist BJP, which supported Jagmohan, was part of VP Singh’s coalition. The appointment of Jagmohan would please them, assuaging any apprehensions that could arise among them at the prospect of a Muslim as Home Minister”.

        via Whose man was Jagmohan?.

        I am clarifying to avoid the impression that a factually wrong statement was made earlier.

        • admin said, on September 1, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 7, 2012 at 6:39 pm

      Respectfully,

      I am not clear about your stand. The post is surrounding – Elst as its proponent, Britishers, Muslims as the competing factors in the partition imbroglio in 1947. Kashmir or Jagmohan, is not the theme. Pandits were evicted long after 1947 partition but you seem to mention disaster of 1948 twice. Which 1948 disaster are you refering to, please indicate?

      “What kind of bharat-tantra did your gandi boy employ for disaster of ’48. And whose interests was he serving? Why blame Jagmohan for the refugee crisis when it was clear that the might of your indian state counts for nothing against a determined population? And on what basis do you claim that it was a minority of kashmiris who chased the hindus away? I was there then and observed the exact opposite. Just a reading of Kashmiri media at that time is enough to invalidate your claim.”

      By ‘minority of Kashmiris’ I believe you indicate Muslims, if yes, Muslims in Kashmir are not minority. The minority in Kashmir are non-muslims.

      If you were in Kashmir at that time, then your observation, “I was there then and observed the exact opposite.” is not very factual. What are you trying to construe by adding “just the opposite” is not a ground reality but just another twist of facts. Reading of Kashmiri media of any time is highly deceptive because they, like the rest of Indian media, are anti-Hindu, anti-India establishment. But discussing it is deviating from the actual theme at hand.

      Jumping from one to other points, names, historical perspective defeats your own argument e.g. “Just walk into a refugee camp and ask if you have any doubts. Google will not help you here.” again this deviates us from the issue at hand making it irrelevant.

      • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 7, 2012 at 7:02 pm
        @Dr. O. P. Sudrania

        This is called mud flinging. While you are busy wiping the mud, some more comes. The idea is to evade the topic. But after the first few handfulls, this mud starts slithering all over the throwers body.

        I have a feeling that Catholic-Christain Elst may actually be right.

        1. There does seem to be a section of these ‘Hindus’ who are afraid – who are hiding under Catholic-Christian Elst’s skirts.

        2. These ‘Hindus’ that Catholic-Christain Elst is in touch with, and correctly diagnoses that they are afraid.

        3. These are ‘Hindus’ who have anyway retained Catholic-Christain Elst to fight their ‘Hindu’ battles – because they are afraid of fighting their own battles.

        4. These are proxies who are coming out to hide the fact that Catholic-Christain Elst is a hack – and that their hack, Catholic-Christain Elst is incapable of fighting his own battles, Belgium and EU.

        5. This whatever, VV are all the products of Gandhiji and Nehru – without whom they would have been the doormats in the US and UK. Even today, whenever there is an issue they come whining back to Mother India.

        6. On their own, they cannot take care of their own in the US. There are a number of these cases, which I have highlighted of Indian-origin people in US jails who are getting unfair treatment.

        7. I would like to know what this VV character has done in US, where he is currently instead of shedding crocodile tears for Kashmiri Pandits.

        But you are right. The Topic is Catholic-Christain Elst misrepresentation of the facts regarding Partition and granting absolution the British.

      • vv said, on August 7, 2012 at 7:59 pm

        Sudrania, I have nothing to say about elst. My post was taking offense to the label used for Jagmohan and holding him responsible for the sad situation with refugees. The ’48 disaster of folks living in current day pakistan being done-in by their leadership is similar to what happened in post ’89 in kashmir. The folks responsible for both are of the same ideological stream but it was a shame to see Anuraag twist it to make Jagmohan the fall guy. All he responds with is personal attacks based on current location.

        And as for my observation about kashmiri moslems, I saw it myself. A vast majority of them have nothing for contempt for India even after all the tax payer money that was spent by these gandi boys to buy loyalty. Unlike written in indian media at that time, it was obvious to who ever was on the ground that a vast majority of them did support ethnic cleansing and wanted non-moslems out.

        • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 8, 2012 at 9:27 pm

          VV,
          I personally feel that Anurag has twice accepted his slip on his comment about Jagmohan and you should kindly appreciate it. In this matter of fact, to me, you both seem to be correct on your stands. You pointed it out and he has gracefully boldly accepted it. I think his admission should be equally credited to him.

          Secondly, you, while pointing out on the role of Jagmohan, failed to provide some backing data as evidence. I am not finding fault in you. But making such evidence explicit, you strengthen your point which is what Anurag has repeatedly uttered.

          I personally feel that you should move on with the main theme. Kashmir imbroglio is even more dirty than the story of partition, which at least culminated in August 1947 but Kashmir is going on worst, more so after Zia ul Haqisation of Islam in Pakistan. I have written myself sufficiently in my articles on “Religion, Motivation, Terror and Law:

          Let us concentrate on KE and his role which is hardly appreciated by the masses of Indian society. He should be openly discussed on it and Anurag has nicely provided this forum for. Let us not defeat our common purpose in fault finding amongst ourselves. Please excuse me, I am just making a request to all bloggers here with all my due respect which everybody deserve by and large, in some manner they are contributing in positive manner. I am highly pleased that so many of you have realised his complicity, which is what I endeavoured to do. I have full appreciation to all of you who have taken out their valuable time to enlighten on this hardly appreciated point on KE. I feel sad when I see a lot of others who have failed to appreciate KE’s hidden denigration of Hindus, by and large. Even some of true Hindu apologists have been carried away by his superficial remarks on Christian missionaries and Muslims. He has successfully used his technique in his multiples of writings. He needs a regular multipronged exposure from various authors in whatever way they can do.

          Regards to you all, and continue your positive contribution backed with evidence so that we feel enriched. I often find that the commentators enlighten more than the actual article that gets caught in space constraint.

          • Kishan said, on August 9, 2012 at 5:43 am

            I have been reading Elst’s Blog for some time now, and read his book on Ayodhya also. This reading gave me an impression that he admires Hinduism (for want of a better word to describe the traditional ancient Indian culture). He does hate Islam but why should that fact fluster the likes of Anurag Sanghi and Sudrania so much that they use all kinds of abuses for Elst.

            • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 9, 2012 at 9:03 am

              Kishan,
              I am sorry to differ with you though you are free to your opinion. We have a person who has started a temple of “English Maataa” and recieved accolades from BBC and KE is a good friend of. That good fellow also observes Macaulay’s birthday and KE has attended his parties.

              I have not read his book on Ayodhya. His blog on Lord Macaulay and its caption with its first page etc is refered by me in my comments which you skip to refer to. Yet you are nice enough enough to malign me with the word “fluster” that seems unfair to me. Please read that blog or website which I am refering to and come back. Even after that you feel satisfied instead of flustering, I have no qualms against you.

              Kishan beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. You are not alone to admire him, I know quite a few who openly abuse Hindus in the name of dalits despite that they are not dalits and I know their reasons for it. He is free to his opinion and I feel just sad that you have not cared to read my comments where I have detailed my reasons with references. Interpretation is such a nimble nuance that is highly subjective matter. If you like despite my reference, please go and sing carols in his praise. But I and Anurag are not alone in his Moharram to breast beat.

              If you compare his Macaulay’s version and this post carefully and patiently, the dichotomy of his disparate descriptions are fairly grotesque ab initio. Thanks for response.

              • Kishan said, on August 9, 2012 at 9:52 am

                Another fact : He greatly admires Late Sita Ram Goel who was a crusader in the cause of defending “Hinduism” against the twin onslaught of ‘Single God’ ‘Single Prophet’ religions like Islam and Christianity.
                He has also written in detail about the damaging stance of the modern ‘secularists’ and Nehrvian ‘scholars’ who are always against anything that is even remotely in the interest of ‘Hindus’.
                Who are you condoling when you say you are breast beating ?

              • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 9, 2012 at 3:06 pm

                Thanks Kishan. You are too intelligent. It is needless to continue any meaningful discussion with you when you do not stick to the points. You have not answered anything that I suggested, instead digressing to totally irrelevant things endlessly. What you have said is well known to me, but unfortunately you are too possessive.

                Please leave it as far as I am concerned. But I shall not like to be dictated, as I am not asking you to. Whatever you have said does not give him any credit or license for his misstep.

              • Kishan said, on August 10, 2012 at 6:20 am

                Well, my questions are still not answered.
                O.K. I don’t mind. But pls provide me link to Elst’s article about Macaulay so that I can read it, and may be, can get converted to your point of view, if it is closer to the truth. Remember, truth is supreme “Satyam Eva Jayate”. I consider myself a seeker and not a ‘Guru’ or ‘Master’.

              • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 10, 2012 at 9:31 am

                “Well, my questions are still not answered.
                O.K. I don’t mind. But pls provide me link to Elst’s article about Macaulay so that I can read it, and may be, can get converted to your point of view, if it is closer to the truth. Remember, truth is supreme “Satyam Eva Jayate”. I consider myself a seeker and not a ‘Guru’ or ‘Master’.”

                Kishan, I am pleased with your this observation. A debate is done only to enlighten ourselves, not for quarling amongst ourselves. If you convert to my view point is another matter but if you can dig out the truth, is my duty to indicate. Rest is in your own hands to convince or otherwise.

                The link you are wanting me to provide, and I am glad that now we are on right track, do me a favour of a little home work and with a cool unbiased mind. Please Google or Yahoo and print in the task bar, “Lord Macaulay Koenraad Elst” and perhaps the first article will open should be by KE’s observations. You kindly just read with a free mind at leisure and I am sure, you will or should get your answer. I saw it in the end of 2008 soon after its appearance in “Freedom Express”. Since then I have been collecting literature to rebuff him. Using mere loose words do not mean a sense. I am persevering since then. My rejoinder is now under preparation. My only request would be to kindly avoid misinterpretation like Chandra Bhan Prasad. Respectfully, he has misused his wit at the instigation of some institutions who are not sympathisers to India that includes all sections. I shall not digress here on another disparate issue. I have writen extensively on this cancer of Caste recently. I love my weaker sections but not the politics (dirty) behind it. They are all on net.

                Lastly, if you have anything to suggest me, where I am wrong, I stand for correction and suggestion.

              • vv said, on August 9, 2012 at 4:44 pm

                “We have a person who has started a temple of “English Maataa” and recieved accolades from BBC and KE is a good friend of. That good fellow also observes Macaulay’s birthday and KE has attended his parties. ”

                This does it. The “good fellow” whom you condescendingly refer to is Chandrabhan Prasad, a Dalit intellectual who has good deal of work writing from the Dalit experience.
                Now the mask is off, eh, good Doctor? I now see where you are coming from.

                it becomes clear now as to what folks like you got offended the most about. I guess education and a title did not cure the good doctor of his age old racism.
                If you read Mr. Prasad, he has explained his reasons for the english temple and has done a pretty good job of it. You could agree or disagree, it is your call, but seriously, KE of attending a party organized by a dalit intellectual?
                Which century are you from? Are folks still not supposed to dine with dalits? Seriously, is that your gripe?

                What bharat tantras are you envisioning with ideas like that? A racist society where a dalit cannot even vent his feelings & grievances?
                It is interesting that fellows like you accuse jagmohan, hindutvas, dalits & their intellectuals but shit your pants to take on the islamists. Good old dhimmi boys just like your gandi & his spawn.
                Seriously, is this what gets you riled up? KE dining with CP?
                What is now obvious to me now is that his proximity to dalit intellectuals is what got Elst some special attention on this board. I did not get this before and had I, I would not have even bothered to read through, let alone comment. Somehow, in this dhimmi so-called bharat tantra language, dalits have no space and even attempting to understand their point of view (let alone sympathize) will get you labeled a catholic cristan invader, living in a foreign land, demonic etc. I’d rather take my shit somewhere else than associate with people who get worked up over having a little pork curry with a Dalit intellectual.

              • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 9, 2012 at 5:15 pm

                VV

                Stick to Elst discussion on Partition, Muslim League, British and Congress.

              • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 9, 2012 at 5:42 pm

                I noticed earlier that someone of you have lamented to Anurag for being personalised. I shall not not be neither foul nor abusive personally. But you are a disoriented lot. Now you are doing the same. You do not try to understand the point. I am the one who lambasts people on castes and I am and will be the first person to live and dine with a dalit but dining with a dalit and speading hate are not synonymous. It is you who is unnecessarily whinning and acting as Elst’s apologists. Why?

                You VV are a nasty coward who has no guts to even declare your name. What are you showing your wit by being abusive and spoiling the genuine debate. You think you are too clever? Why are you being offended if it is directed on Elst who has written the column. Nobody or atleast I have not been abusive and foul mouthed like you. Do you think I can not reply in your tone but that will mean condescending to your level. Sorry, I am prepared for that. If you have more abuses, please hurl to your heart’s content. Go ahead but at the cost of your reputation. People like you do the same everywhere.

                You have no interest in genuine discussion but you want to show off. That is your problem and live with it.

          • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 9, 2012 at 6:20 pm

            I personally feel that Anurag has twice accepted his slip on his comment about Jagmohan and you should kindly appreciate it. In this matter of fact, to me, you both seem to be correct on your stands. You pointed it out and he has gracefully boldly accepted it. I think his admission should be equally credited to him.

            @Dr.OPS – VV is wrong on Jagmohan and Kashmir. Totally and completely.

            I am right on Kashmir, Jagmohan and BJP’s failures in Kashmir. Please click on the link for the clarification.

            I am wrong in allowing Kashmir to sidetrack the discussion.

            • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 10, 2012 at 7:42 am

              Anurag,
              I must concede and upto that point, you had boldly and gracefully accepted. The detractors and spoilers of the debate has cunningly succeeded in sidetracking this discussion. Elst just does the same in his relentless shallow criticism of Hindus, Muslims, Christian missionaries (only superficially to divert attention) but I am yet to see a single positive work. He sympathises and selects those disaffected sections of Hindus who can be used by these predators to divide the already fragmented society. Chandra Bhan is one such name which is unfortunate. Like Elst, he also does not respond when gets cornered. He will know me very well. He prides himself in chiding. This is in itself monstrous and prepostrous. Chandra Bhan is a misguided literary genius who studied from Delhi. He is selfish like Iliah.

              “I am wrong in allowing Kashmir to sidetrack the discussion.”

              I was myself just thinking on this line but was hesitant to make such suggestion. As a Blogmaster, it is also your prerogative to filter certain off the track comments on certain grounds. One you have just stated, irrelevance. Second should be that any anonymous commenter should not be allowed as far as possible. Although some clever bloggers use second fanciful IDs but it is decietful as I noticed earlier. The very tone of the comment was more than enough to directly name him.

              This comment box is for the specific topic and we should stick to the same. Let us leave Jagmohan behind. I have taken note of him and I shall like to update myself on it. But it has, as you rightly say, succeeded to sidetrack the discussion. Perhaps it is also a lesson to control and monitor the discussion.

  20. Roni said, on August 7, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    It does seem ANURAAG has sympathy for the Islamic elite in India but not for the Christian elite of India, who btw are all Indian. It does seem you have a point of view which is to minimize the Islamic genocide in india, which is odd, because Islam and Christianity are legacy of the same ideology, ABRAHAM. What ever can be said against the Christian CAN BE SAID against Muslims. In the same way christians invaded, enslaved africans, north americans south americans, chinese, indians, and australian, ISLAM DID THE EXACT same thing, in north africa, central asia, south asia, south east asia.

    What even more alarming is that ANURAAG their are many many accounts of MUSLIMS in attacking Hindu temples, people and kingdoms, The jizay tax, the destruction of thousands of temples, the plunder of Islamic raids in india, by MUSLIMS HISTORIANS during that time.

    I CANT FAULT your research in the EUROPEAN-Chrisitan attack on India, But your own admission in covering up or reasoning ARAB-islamic attacks on india does seem to taint your opinions. Now in Saudi Arabia they deem a hindu life to be worth 33 times less than a muslim. Every Islamic state is an state sponsored Islamic regime, All muslims have to ADHERE TO ARAB LANG, LAW, IDEOLOGY, HISTORY, and must face arab five times a day.

    ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY are ONE RELIGIOUS organization, with TWO SECTS. Many european religious leaders have admired and wanted to accept islam.

    Their is a very interesting story, by a former jesuit priest, who states, ISLAM WAS CREATED BY THE FINANCIAL POWER AND CONTROL OF ROME, IN ARABIA-FELIX, it was Mohamed first wife, khalidja a christian who was supposedly told by Rome, to initiate prophethood in a man. And who was it that first stated that mohamed was a prohet?…….His first wife. ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY WORK on the EXACT SAME LEVEL. Abrahamic desert block faiths, adhere to the one VIOLENT god ABRAHAM, lineage of ADAM AND EVE, moses, noah and ALL ADHERENTS TO THE ARYAN THEORY……

    arabs ARE WHITE CAUCASIONS, AS ARE THE EUROPEANS……MOHAMED was said to have red hair, and red hair was among the arab elite, and we know that their was a nordic vandal invasion of north africa during the rome times……

    Your paramount view that ALL OF INDIAN PROBLEM LIES WITH EUROPEAN CHRISTIAN-abrahamic, is ONLY HIGHLY FLAWED because of one reason, your total dilution of ISLAMIC-ABRAHAMIC ideology. BOTH OF THEM WANTED TO CONTROL, PLUNDER AND INVADE INDIA….

    NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. The path of BOTH HAVE BEEN THE EXACT SAME..and their will NEVER be a hindu-muslim alliance, because the IDEOLOGY OF THE KORAN is no SUBMISSION.

    it was MUSLIM in middle east that worked with GERMAN NAZIS to round up jews.

    It was the MUSLIM slave trade that captured over 100million people.

    and its the own muslim historians that PRIASE HOW MANY HINDUS, BUDDHIST, SIKHS, THEY KILLED….

    and how every temple that met aurangzeb eye was demolished.

    Since 2002 , their have been over 18.000 islamic terrorist attacks. So i dont understand why you dilute ISLAMIC TERROR in india, it can only lead to the view that you consider ISLAMIC ideology, a part of Dharma, you consider islamic rule in india, the invasion as wholly justified and legitimate.

    Shame. As your work on uncovering the truth about european=christian control in india is well written, i just hoped you would dedicate some time to the imperial arab-islamic ideological attempt in doing the same as the christians.

    CHRISTIANS and ISLAM are run by the same CAUCASIAN ELITE. Mecca and Vatican are but two branches.

    When you look at the conditions of MUSLIMS, they HAVE to adhere to arab law, customs, ideology, history, origins, wedd, food, and must face arab five times a day, and also ARABS state you cannot leave ISLAM without being killed, called apostacy. So it asks one to question what does faith mean in islam?….Now Indian muslims are more tolerant, why is that?…..Could it be that 80% of India is dharmic nation and doesnt have an inherent ideology to attack muslims?..Why is that in EVERY majority islamic state, be it anywhere, ISLAMIC LAW AND IDEOLOGY usually hijack all legal, educational and political departments?

    The truth is ARAB ISLAM AND EUROPEAN CHRISTIANITY, from the one arab sect of ABRAHAM, from the one lineage, from the caucasion tribe, of SHEM AND JAPETH….(first two sons of Noah), are EXACTLY THE SAME RELIGIOUS SYSTEMS!

    Thanks.

  21. Roni said, on August 7, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    Almost all leaders in India are suffering from a Macauleyite Education.

    From an english education system lang, history, ideology, origins, policy, India is a COUNTRY run along ABRAHAMIC LINES…..

    IF colonial history is told a factual education, then its no wonder so many hindus are deluded idiots. When india stops using an english colonial framework, then you will know india is free.

    INDIA WAS NEVER FREE, the islamic and christian elite morphed into CONGRESS. A front party of the Abrahamic elite.

  22. Roni said, on August 7, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham’s descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem’s, the latter would enslave them.
    Al-Tabari, Vol. 2, p. 21, p. 21

    Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African’s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.
    Al-Tabari, Vol. 2, p. 11, p. 11

    Just a point, EVERYONE WHO WAS NOT EUROPEAN OR ARAB, was considered a child of ham or slave to Arabs, turks and Europeans. Pagan originally meant non christian non islamic.

    Thanks.

  23. Nobody said, on August 7, 2012 at 10:45 pm

    One doesn’t need much brain to recognize the Islamic enemy, even with his best taqiyya mask on. But it takes a lot of analysis to recognize the Christian enemy, especially when wearing the different masks of secular, atheist, liberal, humanist, philanthropist, NGO etc. Commend the author for exposing Elst quite forcefully. This ‘white’washing of the British period, however subtle, needs to be rejected, as it was done with our ’eminent historians’ regarding the Islamic period.

    However I am disappointed that this Kashmir issue was raised by the author without adequate support – unnecessary distraction:

    Kashmiri Pandits were driven off from the Valley during a Hindutva Governor – Jagmohan – who had the entire might of the Indian State at his disposal. … A few criminal leaders, colluded to drive out Kashmiri Pandits from their homes. … How can a few warlords and gangsters drive away thousands from their homes – except in State collusion?

    This is about the British and Partition. Stick to that.

    rogue State called Pakistan, created by the Anglo-Saxon Bloc

    Well, Desert Bloc is responsible for much of the needless suffering, both then and now – we shall in hindsight look at partition as unavoidable amputation of gangrene… and move on. We should be more worried about preventing potential future amputations, as new areas of Desert Bloc gangrene are developing rapidly.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 7, 2012 at 11:14 pm

      Milord,

      The plaintiff would hereby like to humbly submit with the leave of the bench.

      1. It is gratifying for the plaintiff to read Your Lordship’s observations with such a magisterial air.

      2. The Kashmir issue, the plaintiff would like to submit was not raised by the author – but by the Troll Brigade employed by the sole Defendant – who is absent but has sent his many advocates to mislead the proceedings.

      They succeeded – in the case of Kashmir. As you are aware, Kashmir is every Indians Achilles heel. Raise the Kashmir topic, and he makes a mistake. As your Lordship observed, the Kashmiri Pandit issue was completely extraneous to the proceedings at hand.

      Wish to place this on record.

  24. Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 8, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    Anurag,
    “Unfortunately, it happened on his watch. He has to take take onus. He doesn’t. Instead he whines – on and on.

    I have not got into this story too deep – so cannot tell you more than the simple, bare facts.”

    I think your stand on Jagmohan is correct to this point which you have accepted it twice here boldly, is highly applauded and please do not get involved in this most dirty hypothesis which has been mostly preached and propagated by the groups who had connived in that genocide during Farooq Abdullah’s regime as CM. He could be certainly taken to task when the duly elected (though controversial) and Jagmohan came later on the scene. Thus Mustafa Kamal (younger brother of F. Abdullah) and the separatists and recently this old Pakistani mole – Syed Ali Shah Geelani (hardcore Islamist propped by ISI), JKLF and Hizbul Mujahideen and a lot of others were complicit in that gory incident which should shame any sane civilised society. Peruse briefly here: http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/kashmiripandit/message/11788

    Please peruse B. Raman and some other articles on Kashmir here:

    http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/tag/terrorism/

    Just as the partition story, the Kashmir pot is even more black and dirty, made so after the defeat of USSR in Afghanistan after 1989 December when all those brute mujahideens were freed and needed to be re-employed with the tacit approval of CIA and Pentagon. What role UK/Europe played before WW II, later on US is playing. I have written a few posts on it earlier. In fact, presently, US/UN/Europe are all complicit in this dirty game by using these brute Islamists. Hence none of them are neither less nor more. Or perhaps the role may be difficult to pin point on one specific group. That is where the role being played by this pseudo-apologist of British has gone wrong.

    In the name of Hindu apologist, Elst has been indulging in sympathising with all anti Hindu forces like Dalits who are being misused by Catholic Industry to destabilise India and for predatory proselytisation. Dalits form a good bunch like Mr Chandra Bhan Prasad and KE is his best sympathiser.

    I have been lately writing my articles on this caste problem in various communities who have been maligning Hindus alone for this matter of fact Please peruse: http://www.chakranews.com/castes-in-buddhism-is-caste-only-a-hindu-problem-part-4/3094

    Four series has been aired and perhaps couple more should see it to finish them presently.

    Please allow me to stay on the topic without digressing from its main issue of “Partition, Muslims, British, KE”. I shall also request to all the apologists for dalits to avoid mixing disparate problems. Otherwise it will be a never ending blame game story. Hence please, request to all commentators, let us stick to the current mandate. It is also wise to suggest some facts to corroborate your denials or assertions when replying to a point. Without furnishing datas, as Anurag has repeatedly said, the comment looks mere indulgent dry verbosity.

    Couple of more links:

    http://www.kashmir-information.com/fundamentalism.html

    • Kishan said, on August 19, 2012 at 6:38 am

      Dr OPS, I have gone thru the article by KE again (I had seen it earlier also). His point in reassessing Macaulay is limited to saying that Macaulay’s purpose was to create a class of ‘interpreters’ who could act as an effective link between the Indian masses and the English rulers. The slavish mentality towards the British was more a trait among the Indian rich and elite which percolated down to the masses. May be that mentality had developed in the earlier era of Muslim rule. And I could not see any effort at an apology for the British in the article.
      If some one advocates upliftment of the Dalits who have suffered humiliation for centuries, what can be the objection to that proposition? Yes, creation of Dalit leaders who are no better in governance and are much worse in the aspect of corruption is a grave distortion of the demand for empowerment.

      • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 19, 2012 at 8:13 am

        Kishan,
        Thanks for the response. Again I am not objecting the upliftment of dalits, in fact I am with you on this issue. I cannot keep repeating the same point endlessly.

        Coming to my point on Elst and his Hindu apologism, you have still not grasped the issue where Elst is promoting himself as Hindu sympathiser at best, not a convert, which Elst himself projects elsewhere. His measured attacks on christian missionaries is a technique to divert attention from his hidden designs. His repeated use of words “Hindu Nationalists” do not bode well. Thanks.

        • Kishan said, on August 19, 2012 at 10:48 am

          Dr OPS I think you are either confused or deliberately acting in this manner. Either Elst is a Hindu basher or he is a sympathizer; he cannot be both. If he has an anti-Hindu agenda, that is not even remotely apparent from his writings. Yes, he is very strongly anti-Muslim, and he does not make any attempt to hide it. So I have still not understood why you are so strongly against him. Has Elst written anywhere that he has converted to Hinduism? Has he projected himself as a convert in any seminar or any other gathering?
          At the end of the article that you referred to, Elst quotes “Satyam eva Jayate”, ‘May the truth prevail’. That can come only from a sympathizer.

          • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 19, 2012 at 2:54 pm

            Kishan,
            “either confused or deliberately acting in this manner”. It is exactly what I was avoiding to use. However, let agree to disagree on this issue.

            • Kishan said, on August 20, 2012 at 6:29 am

              It’s O.K. with me. However I do hope you also believe in “Satyam Eva Jayate”.
              About Macaulay, I came across another write-up at Sanjeev Sabhlok’s blog at sabhlokcity.com wherein Sanjeev quotes Dadabhoi Nauroji praising Macaulay as stating in British Parliament that in their own (British) interest he would rather deal with an educated India than an ignorant India.

  25. Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 8, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    If I may, this whole article is utilised basically to expose the clever designs of this Hindu basher – KE. Partition story is just one theme that we have found him caught in. Please bear in mind. I have given a few more links above and yet more, we should do our duties to the nation for. Please continue more and more of your thoughts on it.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 8, 2012 at 9:57 pm

      @Dr.OPS

      If I may correct.

      This is not the first time that Elst has played this silly game.

      My opening line provided a link to another Catholic-Christian Elst malware. Dravidian Invasion Theory. After decades of persistent work across continents by people like Rajiv Malhotra, Subhash Kak, et al, the Aryan Invasion /Migration Theory is nearly dead. It is now received by hoots of derision and laughter that it deserves.

      Catholic-Christian Elst starts of the Dravidian Invasion Theory.

      I identified Elst in my first few posts India Lowers Guard – and my initial readers thought I was on thin ice.

      Over the years, Catholic-Christian Elst has proven to be every bit a Christian Trojan intrusion, that I predicted, with deeply malafide intentions. He has been supported by the Escape-From-India NRI types, who are interested in cheering from the sidelines while we tear at each other. This peculiar breed of NRIs – find fault with India and wish ill for India, while feigning goodwill.

      On the Liberal-Progressive NRI side you have people like Amartya Sen, Jagdish Bhagwati, Meghnad Desai. On the Right Wing, there are fewer prominent name – but the ‘Whatever’, VV types best represent them. Today they are a part of the Western Crusade against Islam. Tomorrow, they will equally fast move to any Muslim country if it pays them more – and sing their praises.

      • Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 9, 2012 at 3:38 am

        “This is not the first time that Elst has played this silly game.”
        I agree with you and I had noticed him on my first read of his article on Macaulay’s out of the way defence and equally forceful anti Hindu (stress) comment. This fool doesn’t seem to care for his integrity. Of course his promoters have nothing to loose except his sponsorship money.

  26. Dr. O. P. Sudrania said, on August 9, 2012 at 3:43 am

    I am happy on one count that everybody seems to agree on KE’s nefarious designs.

  27. admin said, on August 19, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 19, 2012 at 3:20 pm
      @vijayasenthilk

      Koenraad Elst clearly absolves the British.

      This post is not about the nature of Islam. Koenraad Elst is also not talking about the nature of Islam. He is specifically talking about the British being innocent parties in Partition. Without counter-proof, counter-data, counter-evidence!

      You want to admire the British Raj in the company of a hack like Catholic Christian Koenraad Elst from a country whose Catholic Christian king murdered 1 crore Congolese, go ahead.

      But dont try and tell me what Koenraad Elst means or says. I know very well what he means and says.

      • Vijaya SenthilKumar (@vijayasenthilk) said, on August 19, 2012 at 8:00 pm

        “And what are ‘Hindus’ supposed to do? Send Indian Muslims to concentration camps?”

        As someone who read Koenraad Elst for years, I’m sure he will be the first one to vehemently oppose any violence against Muslims. As a critic of Islam, he has the suffficient intellect to differentiate between Islam and Muslims. Their criticism is against Islam at ideological level and not against Muslims. Islam can be well defined and studied from its original sources. But Muslims cant be defined like that. There are moderates, extremists and pacifists. So target ideology not the people. There is no harm in it. As he says, VOI critics of Islam has not even touched a hair of any Muslim, but leaders who praise Islam tops the list in killing Muslims.

        • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 19, 2012 at 8:22 pm
          We are not discussing Islam here.

          I have discussed Desert Bloc group of ideologies in great detail. I am perfectly able and willing to discuss questions there.

          Catholic Christian Elst, who like a coward has run away from his own country and continent, to teach vacuous people, gets no respect from me.

          Let him work on building his society and country and continent – and then we will talk to him.

          • osudrania said, on August 21, 2012 at 4:04 pm

            I agree with you in toto. Belgique women had to threat “no sex” technique to masculise those eunuchs. He is roaming in a waste land left by the sucker colonials and its people divided in every aspects. Where else could his witchcraft work better than India?

            • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 21, 2012 at 7:57 pm

              Where else could his witchcraft work better than India?

              I disagree.

              Everywhere – except India. Desert Bloc will keeping trying with Catholic Christian Elst types – but they will fail.

              Look at Catholic Christian Elst’s sanskaar.

              1. The home country of Catholic Christian Elst has a population of little over 110 lakhs.

              2. Slightly bigger than Pune.

              3. They have two major tribes, Flemish and Walloon.

              4. The Flemish tribe speak Dutch and the Walloons tribe speak French.

              5. For the last 25 years they have been threatening to break into two countries.

              6. They both are Jesus followers – and controlled by the Vatican.

              7. They have one king. They are both Whites.

              Yet, they cannot live together.

              Brussells, an important city in Belgium is considered as the de facto capital of EU.

              The whole of EU is less than half the population of India. One race, one religion. Plenty of space. Around 33% bigger than India – 44 lakh square kilometres compared to India’s size of 33 lakh sq. km.

              They have been killing people all over the world for the last 500 years – and killing each other throughout their history – except the last 50 years.

              It takes some totally brain-washed people to start taking lessons and following Catholic Christian Elst – and to believe that he can have two ideas worth rubbing together.

              Looking at the comments, I have a feeling that Catholic Christian Elst may be right after all. There are a few cowards in India who are deficient in some departments. These are the people who have been in touch with Catholic Christian Elst – and Catholic Christian Elst knows only these cowardly, deficient Indians.

              Made for each other guess. Fully blind leading the completely deaf.

  28. Vijaya SenthilKumar (@vijayasenthilk) said, on August 19, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    The post of Elst is indeed about Islam. He absolves the British and make Muslims (in a way, Islam) guilty of partition. Muslims of the subcontinent are proud of their invaders and Mughal rule in India. Yes, Indian Muslims too, shockingly. Just google the way in which the Muslims of TN reacted to the Francis Gautier exhibition about Aurangazeb’s atrocities. Pakistani students study history of sub-continent that starts from the glorification of Islamic invaders and the subsequent Islamic rule. So it was unacceptable to Muslim psyche to live under Hindus whom were once ruled by them. Hence the partition. Simple. You indulge in supperssio veri suggestio falsi to prove that Muslims has nothing to do with partion or they were puppets in the hands of British. You forget the unjustifiable demands made by Muslim League for Muslims in every negotating table and the gory voilence unleashed by Muslim League on Hindus and Sikhs. If we are not to absolve British, we can say that they acted as mere catalysts in the fundamental conflict between Hindus and Muslims that resulted in partition.

    If the division between Hindus and Muslims was created by British alone, that hatred would not have sustained till now when the british influence is long gone. Forget about the India-Pakistan. Think about the problems we face with home-grown Islamic radicalism. Its completely unjustifiable from the facts we have, to say that hatred between Indians and Pakistanis or Hindus and Muslims is a colonial residue. The problem lies somwhere else. Elst says that it is Islam. VOI thinkers also concluded the same. I too agree with them.

    • osudrania said, on August 21, 2012 at 4:58 pm

      Both Islam and Muslims are ill defined entities as far as one can make out from their practice. But one thing is consistent – volatile nature easily ignited to unleash violence without reason. If reason is Islam, then one has to ask, “Which Islam”? Islam of Osama bin Laden, Islam of Zia-ul Haq, Islam of current Saudi Arabia which is being branded as Wahabbi/Salafi/Sunni/Jihadi brand, Islam of Shiite Iran cult which blasted the Al Masjid Al Haram, Islam of Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, Islam of various tribal races which cannot see eye to eye with each other. You can go on and on elaborating on it.

      Coming to Muslims, “Which Muslims again”? Muslims living in Pakistan, are they one entity? Muslims in any one Muslim country, cannot be projected as a progressive civility on any count except that they have a Pavlovian reaction to fight, kill, murder, rape, plunder, sodomise, pedophilia, not against the non muslims alone but among themselves as well. Look at Iraq, Iran, Baharain, or any other Islamic nation, it is a chaos. Muslims feel that by creating a law and order problem, a demand can be easily met. This rogue mentality leads to incessant violence in the name of a still undefined “Islam”. It is sad and their this very weakness of ideotic volatile mind has been misused repeatedly by the Western powerful nations making the Muslim world a concubine state. Muslims cannot live under a self reliant democratic political system because it negates the Moulavi-Ruler monopoly. Moulavis spew venom after the Friday noon prayers cum brain storming violence exercise which invariably leads to the premeditated violence. How can one check this? Are Islam and Muslim words synonymous or heterogenous, is difficult to understand, except one common agenda which identifies or has tended to identify lately is a most volatile, violent society which will not live in peace and will not let live others in peace too. If someone points out, he is an “Islamophobic”. May the Allah almighty bless

  29. Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 19, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    He absolves the British and make Muslims (in a way, Islam) guilty of partition.

    Catholic Christian Elst is incompetent.

    Who, but someone supremely incompetent would argue a case without any facts or evidence? Catholic Christian Elst makes a case – On what basis. What facts? What documents? What records? What timeline of events? None.

    Anyone who depends on Catholic Christian Elst to provide intellectual ammunition or support is perhaps intellectually bankrupt as well.

    demands made by Muslim League for Muslims

    This is about the only correct and factual statement that you have made.

    What gave the Muslim League the confidence that they could behave like this – and get away?

    Short and simple answer – British support.

    As to the rest of your comment, it is outside the scope of this post. Various parts of your comments have been addressed in the more than 1000 posts on the 2ndlook group of blogs. Please post your relevant comment on a post that deals with the issue on your mind.

    I am willing to discuss your ideas in a context.

    This post is about absolution granted to the British by Elst – condoned by many Indians on this post here.

    I wonder what kind of Indians would condone murder of some 5 million Indians by the British Raj in the Great Bengal Famine a few years prior to the Partition.

    The theme of these blogs is 2ndlook.

    And if your love of the British is so great, or the hate of Muslims is so great, you dont have the capacity to take a 2ndlook. This blog is not one that caters to your love of the British or the hate of the Muslims.

    It is meaningless to talk further. Remember this is about taking a 2ndlook. If you can take a 2ndlook at your loves and hates, welcome.

    Otherwise …

    • Vijaya SenthilKumar (@vijayasenthilk) said, on August 20, 2012 at 6:42 pm

      “What gave the Muslim League the confidence that they could behave like this – and get away? ”

      First of all, why should they behave like that. They get British support is another matter. What about their own conscience? We cannot argue that claiming unjustifiable special statuses is a common trait to all cultures and religions. On the contrary, people on the Hindu side who opposed two-nation theory emphasised equality.

      “Mr. Savarkar… insists that, although there are two nations in India, India shall not be divided into two parts, one for Muslims and the other for the Hindus; that the two nations shall dwell in one country and shall live under the mantle of one single constitution;… In the struggle for political power between the two nations the rule of the game which Mr. Savarkar prescribes is to be one man one vote, be the man Hindu or Muslim. In his scheme a Muslim is to have no advantage which a Hindu does not have. Minority is to be no justification for privilege and majority is to be no ground for penalty. The State will guarantee the Muslims any defined measure of political power in the form of Muslim religion and Muslim culture. But the State will not guarantee secured seats in the Legislature or in the Administration and, if such guarantee is insisted upon by the Muslims, such guaranteed quota is not to exceed their proportion to the general population.” – Ambedkar, Bhimrao Ramji (1945). Pakistan or the Partition of India

      The unjustifiable demands of Muslim league just demonstrates the Muslim Psyche which remain unchanged even today. Muslims did not want to lose power in India. I would like you to respond to this specific paragraph of Elst,

      “In reality, the ideology of Partition was rooted in Islam. According to Islam, Muslims must always be in power. Thus, Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women but non-Muslim men are not allowed to marry Muslim women because wives are deemed to be at the husbands’ command. In the Middle Ages, Muslim minorities had seemed to subdue the Hindus by military means, and Muslim leaders with a medieval mindset concluded logically that numbers were unimportant to decide who will dominate whom. Thus, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad (who had given an emigration fatwa during the Khilafat movement) is mis-termed a Nationalist Muslim but aimed in fact at the Islamic domination of the whole of India. However, Jinnah had interiorized the modern value of democracy and didn’t dare to ask for more than a country in which Muslims would form the majority.”

      Jinnah himself quoted a religious difference for the partition.

      “It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders, and it is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality, and this misconception of one Indian nation has troubles and will lead India to destruction if we fail to revise our notions in time. The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life and of life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state.”

      If Jinnah was the creation of British, what about Poet, Philsopher Mohammed Iqbal who is considered to be the originator of Pakistan movement. Pakistan is not a result of mere divide and rule game of British, but it is an idea originated much before it was encountered by the British. It had a solid ideological foundation towards a direction to preserve what Muslims saw as their religion and their culture.i.e., Islam. Mohammed Iqbal was responsible for Jinnah to take up the cause of two-nation theory in which he had not shown much interest earlier. Muslims largely saw the Hindu majority as a threat to their existence, another trait, that is not common to all cultures and religions in the world but can be explained by studying the Muhammed’s life on the light of modern concept of psychology. But thats beyond the scope of this discussion. Some of the Iqbal’s quotes during the initial days of ideological development of Pakistan.

      “A separate federation of Muslim Provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of Non-Muslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are.” Allama Iqbal – Biography – Iqbal and Politics” (PHP). 26 May 2006.

      “There is only one way out. Muslims should strengthen Jinnah’s hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it, our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defense of our national existence…. The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims” – Iqbal and Pakistan Movement”. Allamaiqbal.com.

      • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 20, 2012 at 7:47 pm

        Hindu nationalists are taking a cheap shot at the British in order to mask their fear of pinpointing Muslim guilt … you won’t find many articulate opponents of the British conspiracy thesis. did not make British rule “the biggest crime in history”, as L.K. Advani claims on his blog (15 July 2012), but it was pretty bad. Hindus who blame the British for Partition, show that they are afraid of the truth, and afraid of Islam.

        It is far easier to accuse the British, who have safely departed, than to lay the blame at the door of Islam. Blaming Islam opens a can of worms, it is difficult to deal with this religion. It is a challenge to one’s courage, but it is mainly a challenge to one’s intelligence. If you are deficient in these departments, then go ahead and blame the British.

        I will explain on some future occasion, I do not buy the myth of Hindu lack of bravery. Criticizing Islam also requires a large amount on intelligence, viz. the power to discriminate between causes (the doctrine of Islam) and symptoms (the behavior of Muslims, only partly caused by this doctrine), and the balancing act between uncompromising criticism of the doctrine and sympathy at the human level.

        So, responsibly criticizing Islam and its role in the Partition of India requires intelligence.

        It is here that I have more reason to worry. Though Hindus have shown great intelligence in the literature of the past and ICT initiatives of the present, they have mostly failed to apply their intelligence to the Islam problem, though this is staring them in the face every day. But I am confident that now you will do something about it.

        Before we go further, please let me know if you agree with Catholic-Christian Elst’s above thesis.

        If you do agree with the above ideas of Catholic-Christian Elst, then Catholic-Christian Elst and you are soul-mates. It is to Catholic-Christian Elst that you must go.If you have such a low opinion of yourself and contempt for Indians, then I assure you the 2ndlook forum is not the place for you.

        This forum is for people who can criticize India, Indians with respect and concern – and not with contempt, like Catholic-Christian Elst does.

        Ignorance is no crime or fault. Your ignorance of history sparkles in questions and comments on Jinnah and Iqbal. But, when you combine ignorance with bravado, I have no time. Catholic-Christian Elst is fit company – because Catholic-Christian Elst’s ignorance is more resplendent than yours.

        You have a choice. Make it.

        • Vijaya SenthilKumar (@vijayasenthilk) said, on August 21, 2012 at 3:43 am

          Whether I completely agree wiith Elst or not is irrelevant to the discussion. No one deny the atrocities of British in India, even Elst. The simple point of Elst is that Islam’s role in partition is major and simply blaming the British for parition entirely is factually inaccurate. I had similiar views even before Elst articulated those thoughts in his blog.

          • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 21, 2012 at 7:01 am
            @vijayasenthilk

            Whether I completely agree wiith Elst or not is irrelevant to the discussion. No one deny the atrocities of British in India, even Elst.

            This post is entirely about Catholic Christian Elst’s deliberate misrepresentation of Indian history – and his contemptuous tone about Hindus – which you seem to be defending.

            Your dilatory,tactics to avoid condemning Catholic Christian Elst for his disrespect is very revealing of the deep disrespect that you have for yourself, India and Indians. Unless, of course, you dont count yourself as an Indian – and somehow superior to India and Indians.

            So, let us be clear that this post and this discussion is about Catholic Christian Elst and his deliberate misrepresentation of British as innocent.

            Nothing else. Nothing less. Nothing more.

            The simple point of Elst is that Islam’s role in partition is major

            That is a separate topic – and there are many posts dealing with that subject on my blog. We can discuss that if you have respect for India and Indians – and condemnation for Catholic Christian Elst’s contempt for Hindu.

            If you share Elst contempt for for yourself and Indians, that is a separate issue – and not for me or this forum to deal with.

            simply blaming the British for parition entirely is factually inaccurate. I had similiar views even before Elst articulated those thoughts in his blog.

            Going by your comments above, your views need a healthy dose of facts. Have more respect for facts and less pride on views.

            • Kishan said, on August 21, 2012 at 7:42 am

              Mr Anurag Sanghi, can you pls give your facts of Elst’s hate of Hindus. Also can you pls give your facts about how the British manipulated Indian Muslim opinion makers to demand partition. Is the current generation of Muslims also being manipulated by the British or the American Christians to indulge in acts of terrorism ? Why do the Muslim opinion get so easily manipulated ? Your facts pls.

              • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 21, 2012 at 8:16 am
                @Kishan

                Mr Anurag Sanghi, can you pls give your facts of Elst’s hate of Hindus.

                रामायण का पाठ समाप्त हो रहा और अब पूछ रहे कि राम कौन और सीता कौन?

                Go to the beginning of this thread. Read it. Then comment. Even before that you should have read Catholic Christian Elst’s post – and then talked.

                Also can you pls give your facts about how the British manipulated Indian Muslim opinion makers to demand partition. Is the current generation of Muslims also being manipulated by the British or the American Christians to indulge in acts of terrorism ? Why do the Muslim opinion get so easily manipulated ? Your facts pls.

                I can spend time on that with people who have self respect – and respect for Indians. If you are not a Catholic Christian Elst Troll, I have not seen your condemnation of Catholic Christian Elst in your comments above.

                On the other hand you have needlessly stretched, diverted discussions. Dissembling, perambulations. dissimulations, double-talk, wont work now.

                Make your position clear.

                All the Trolls who have come out defending Catholic Christian Elst, directly or indirectly, have proved that Catholic Christian Elst is right, in characterizing Indians as cowards and deficient in some departments – to the extent of his supporters.

                I have no problems with that.

                In fact I whole-heartedly endorse and strongly share the low opinion that Catholic Christian Elst has of Indians – to the extent of his Indian supporters.

                If you are one of Catholic Christian Elst’s Troll Brigade, begone!

              • Kishan said, on August 21, 2012 at 8:37 am

                Good way to avoid giving direct answers Mr Sanghi ! As I have mentioned in my earlier comments, I have read Elst’s articles. I did not find any hate for Hindu’s in them. I may have missed some article of his that are hateful towards Hindus. That is why my question to you to give your facts. Also I am not a student of History but I do want to know the truth.
                I have read your post also but I did not find any reference where I can see the hate that Elst has for Hindus. I am only trying to know the truth. Words like Catholic Christian Elst’s troll do not help me to get at the truth. I am only asking for your help pls Mr Sanghi.

              • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 21, 2012 at 8:52 am

                Good way to avoid giving direct answers Mr Sanghi ! Also I am not a student of History but I do want to know the truth. I am only trying to know the truth. Words like Catholic Christian Elst’s troll do not help me to get at the truth. I am only asking for your help pls Mr Sanghi.

                If you are a seeker of truth, you will comment in a different tone. Twice in this discussion you have accused me of evading answers. It means you know the answers and I am devious. In which case why pretend?

                On the other hand you have needlessly stretched, diverted discussions. Dissembling, perambulations. dissimulations, double-talk, wont work now.

                Make your position clear.

                I am reproducing again a selection of Catholic Christian Elst insults and untruth – which you cannot seem to find. Someone has spat on your face, and you cannot feel it. I am surprised.

                Or are you so used to insults and contempt?

                Hindu nationalists are taking a cheap shot at the British in order to mask their fear of pinpointing Muslim guilt … you won’t find many articulate opponents of the British conspiracy thesis. did not make British rule “the biggest crime in history”, as L.K. Advani claims on his blog (15 July 2012), but it was pretty bad. Hindus who blame the British for Partition, show that they are afraid of the truth, and afraid of Islam.

                It is far easier to accuse the British, who have safely departed, than to lay the blame at the door of Islam. Blaming Islam opens a can of worms, it is difficult to deal with this religion. It is a challenge to one’s courage, but it is mainly a challenge to one’s intelligence. If you are deficient in these departments, then go ahead and blame the British.

                I will explain on some future occasion, I do not buy the myth of Hindu lack of bravery. Criticizing Islam also requires a large amount on intelligence, viz. the power to discriminate between causes (the doctrine of Islam) and symptoms (the behavior of Muslims, only partly caused by this doctrine), and the balancing act between uncompromising criticism of the doctrine and sympathy at the human level.

                So, responsibly criticizing Islam and its role in the Partition of India requires intelligence.

                It is here that I have more reason to worry. Though Hindus have shown great intelligence in the literature of the past and ICT initiatives of the present, they have mostly failed to apply their intelligence to the Islam problem, though this is staring them in the face every day. But I am confident that now you will do something about it.

              • Kishan said, on August 21, 2012 at 9:44 am

                Where is the hate for Hindu’s here Mr Sanghi. It is only a statement of facts. Are we not afraid to face the truth about the Muslim role in partition ? I think we are. We are afraid of speaking the truth that there are many in India with a Jihadi mindset. We see this everyday in India. We even try to rationalize fanaticism in Muslims. And looking at the current scene I find that this fear is not unique to Hindus. Many even in the Christian community don’t want to face the truth about Islam.
                I have again read the passage extracted by you. Now I repeat a question that I asked and did not get an answer to. O.K. the British manipulated the events so that India was partitioned. But this manipulation needs a community whose leaders can be so easily manipulated that they start hating another community with whom they have lived for centuries. Why did the leaders of that community allow themselves to be manipulated? O.K. the British sowed the seeds but the seeds need a fertile soil and moisture and air and sun to grow. Who provided these ? O.K. the British lit the fire. But the fire needs ignitable fuel to spread. Who provided the fuel?
                Or is there something that Hindus did that provided all these ? In that case we can blame neither Muslims nor Christians.
                In the context of the current scene, why is the Muslim community getting itself manipulated by the British and American Christians to wage Jihad not only against India but even against some of their own co-religionists ?
                Honestly I don’t know the answer, that is why I ask.

              • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 21, 2012 at 10:23 am

                Where is the hate for Hindu’s here Mr Sanghi. It is only a statement of facts. Are we not afraid to face the truth about the Muslim role in partition ? I think we are. We are afraid of speaking the truth that there are many in India with a Jihadi mindset. We see this everyday in India. We even try to rationalize fanaticism in Muslims. And looking at the current scene I find that this fear is not unique to Hindus. Many even in the Christian community don’t want to face the truth about Islam.

                This is vastly different from my understanding.

                The word we here includes you – but please exclude me from that We.

                Now I repeat a question that I asked and did not get an answer to. O.K. the British manipulated the events so that India was partitioned. But this manipulation needs a community whose leaders can be so easily manipulated that they start hating another community with whom they have lived for centuries. Why did the leaders of that community allow themselves to be manipulated? O.K. the British sowed the seeds but the seeds need a fertile soil and moisture and air and sun to grow. Who provided these ? O.K. the British lit the fire. But the fire needs ignitable fuel to spread. Who provided the fuel? Or is there something that Hindus did that provided all these ? In that case we can blame neither Muslims nor Christians. In the context of the current scene, why is the Muslim community getting itself manipulated by the British and American Christians to wage Jihad not only against India but even against some of their own co-religionists ? Honestly I don’t know the answer, that is why I ask.

                Two suggestions.

                1. For people like you (and others, who you are including in the We) who are afraid of Islam, Koenraad Elst will be a better guide.

                2. If you have the courage to face up to your fears – and face the Desert Bloc, and want answers, search for your answers in the more than 1100 posts that I have written.

              • Kishan said, on August 21, 2012 at 10:37 am

                O.K. Mr Sanghi, you do not want to give even brief direct answers to counter what Elst is supposed by you to be saying. And to my questions too. It’s O.K. with me.
                I’ll try to read the 1100 pages that you mention. I do hope I will get nearer the truth after this reading.
                Thank you.

              • Kishan said, on August 21, 2012 at 11:00 am

                Mr Sanghi, you seem to think that use of strong and abusive words can substitute for truthful answers. That also is O.K. with me.

            • Vijaya SenthilKumar (@vijayasenthilk) said, on August 21, 2012 at 7:18 pm

              I am not interested in interpersonal ad hominems. You deride a person as “Catholic Christian”, who himself is a worst critic of Christianity. The fundamental role of Islam and a minimal role of British in Partition is a historical truth which also very well explains the current geopolitical realities convincingly. But, ironically, Islam is never criticised by Hindus in the partition debate. This is not only in the case of partition. Hindus are so terrorised of this cult that a part of Hindu consciousness suffer from severe Stockholm Syndrome vis-a-vis dhimmitude. So it is natural for Hindus like you to deride Elst through ad hominems and guilt by association while offering nothing concrete to counter his claims.

              And for you info., Elst is not the first one to arrive at this conclusion. This conclusion is widely reflected in the Voice of India authors who dared to speak politically incorrect truths.

  30. admin said, on August 19, 2012 at 9:00 pm

  31. admin said, on August 19, 2012 at 9:20 pm

  32. Kishan said, on August 21, 2012 at 10:41 am

    And by the way Mr Sanghi, I hope the desert bloc as per your description includes Islam. I ask because I did not notice you using this word although you have used “Catholic Christian” many times.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 21, 2012 at 10:53 am
      A third suggestion.

      Both Quicktake and 2ndlook blogs have a search box. If you want specific answers, feel free to search.

      I cant discuss with someone who is in a position of fear and ignorance – but expects spoonfeeding.

      Use the search box.

      • Kishan said, on August 21, 2012 at 2:17 pm

        As advised by you Mr Sanghi I went to your site 2nd Look and tried to search for ‘Islam, Muslims’. Immediately a warning appeared on the screen that ‘This site contains material from another site that contains malware’. May I request you to get your site cleaned up ?

        • Anuraag Sanghi said, on August 21, 2012 at 2:22 pm
          Start with Quicktake!

          I will check out 2ndlook. It is probably a malicious link, which is embedded in some comment.

  33. admin said, on September 1, 2012 at 7:27 pm

  34. Anuraag Sanghi said, on September 2, 2012 at 11:12 am

  35. aboriginalpress said, on September 5, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Reblogged this on .

  36. rajivkutty said, on April 7, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    you are really sick man, resorting to calling a person Catholic-christian a million times instead of just refuting their views. You are a jihadi sympathizer. Why not you move to Pakistan and live there and enjoy the rights a hindu gets over there. Oh wait you say you are not a hindu. LOL.

    While catholic imperialism is a problem in India that does not absolve the crimes committed by the mullahs.

    Ya sure, muslims had nothing to do with the partition or the mumbai attacks or the various bombings going on. Its the hindus+britishers+jews. Yahoodi+goras. ROFL. Muslims had no part in KP exodus. It’s the JEWS+GORAS+HINDUS.LOL.

    I’m waiting for the day you start putting the cause of all problems in India on the brahmins. That’s the only crap that hasn’t yet been done over here. After all they are the most corrupt people in india right?

    Islam, Quran, etc are squeaky clean. All muslims love hindus. Never mind the constant anti-hindu propaganda peddled in mosques in india/pak or the media in pak. ALso the anti-india rage in Kashmir also is a mirage. it doesn’t exist. The jews are involved. LOL

    Note From admin to Rajiv Kutty – You are free to disagree or criticize – but no personal attacks or adjectives. One more such comment will get you blacklisted.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 7, 2013 at 7:17 pm

      you are really sick man, resorting to calling a person Catholic-christian a million times instead of just refuting their views.

      I totally love your comment Rajiv Kutty. Your comment does provide proof that Elsy may in fact be right. All the Elst-loving Hindus who are OK with his disrespect and adjectives that he uses for these Elst-loving Hindus.

      Elst is Catholic-Christian – and he very loyal to his religion and its political agenda. Unlike Elst I have not used any negative words against Elst.

      All the Hindus who have graced this column in support of Elst have proven that they are indeed (in Elst’s words) impotent and deficient in some departments. You have no problem with the absolution provided by Elst to the British and his characterization of Hinduus – but if I call him Catholic Christian, you have a problem.

      All muslims love hindus. Never mind the constant anti-hindu propaganda peddled in mosques in india/pak or the media in pak. ALso the anti-india rage in Kashmir also is a mirage. it doesn’t exist.

      Pakistanis are pouring anti-India /anti-Hindu sentiment from their land, using their own mosques, using their own funds. As self-declared enemies I respect the Pakistanis.

      Guess what?

      The other day I was forwarded a begging email from Elst (addressed to a third person) – where Elst was asking Indians to fund his anti-India activities.

      I simply love your email.

      To use your own logic, may I propose, that since you love the West+Yahoodis so much, why don’t you move there. They are short of attendants, slaves, servants, indentured labourers – and admirers also.

      Just suggesting …

      Once again, I so-ooo love your comment.

  37. rajivkutty said, on April 7, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    p.s you can block anyone who criticizes your blog. it’s your blog

    what makes you think i am an elst admirer?? i’ve hardly read anything he’s written. This is a constant feature in your blog where you blindly resort to ad-hominems like ‘catholic-christian’ in this case, or ‘bhau’, etc, against anyone whose views you disagree. Elst clearly isn’t an outright evangelist although he maybe a closet evangelist. what is the need to mention ‘catholic-christian’ a million times when clearly the article is about muslim fanaticism/partition and british subversion. ‘catholic-christianity’ had nothing to do with partition nor has anything to do with kashmir problem.

    Why don’t you visit the mosque near my locality where constant anti-hindu garbage is spewed. And I can assure you my locality isn’t in Pakistan. Do you think Zakir Naik is also funded and trained in Pakistan??

    You also spare no ad-hominems by calling me ‘slaves’,servants’,labourers’,etc shows your character.

    I don’t love the west+yahoodis, but I’m also not foolish enough to put all the blame on ‘britishers’ while overlooking the garbage done by the hindus,muslims,christians of india. you seem to have this habit of treating indians like spoilt children who shouldn’t be criticized even when they’ve done wrong.

    If you hate the west+white man so much why do you use electricity+computers+internet?? these are yahoodi+gora devices and inventions right??
    While the british empire caused immense damage to India and damaged indigenous medical systems, metallurgy,agriculture,etc, the US+british system also gave us the internet+electricity+computers+automobiles and it would be foolish to neglect that and there is no harm in being thankful for these inventions. Again don’t come with the retort about Indian IT success,or indian automobile sector,etc. I’m talking about where these technologies were invented.

    What exactly have your favourite muslim empires given india?? ya apart from demolishing our temples not much. Since you love self-declared enemies like Pakistan you must hate any hindu who criticizes some points in this blog lol.

    Also it is foolish to say that Islamic imperialism or islamism is a spent force. As long as sweet crude oil flows under the arabian desert sands islamism will always have a strong financial backing. The elites of the arabian world want to spread islamism, whereas elites of the western world are not interested in spreading any flavour of Christianity. They are more interested in spreading different flavours of socialism, geopolitics,fraudulent patents/intellectual property rights, etc. The fight Indians have to fight is more complex than blindly fighting christianity. Although I agree christianity is a problem especially in the southern states of Tamil Nadu, Andhra and Kerala but to say islamism isn’t an equally disturbing problem is just liberal garbage.

  38. Kishan said, on April 8, 2013 at 5:53 am

    Anurag you are angry at others who use strong words but the words you yourself use are even stronger and abusive. Do unto others what you like them to do unto you.
    Elst’s study of the Hindu books like Veda’s, Upanishads and Puranas is admirably deep. He spent many years in Varanasi for these studies. Although he is a Christian but he admires Hinduism more than his own religion if we go by what he has written so far. And there is truth in his words when he calls us Hindus cowards. And don’t assume you are excluded from this comment.
    In my view and I suppose in your view also both Islam and Christianity are expansionist, violent religions. If there is no difference between us there why quarrel? Use your energy in a more positive way, not hate mongering and quarreling among ourselves.We need unity among ourselves to repair the damage of many centuries and to ensure that no further damage is done.

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 8, 2013 at 6:39 am

      Anurag you are angry at others who use strong words but the words you yourself use are even stronger and abusive. Do unto others what you like them to do unto you.

      Proof. Kishan dont make allegations without proof.

      Elst’s study of the Hindu books like Veda’s, Upanishads and Puranas is admirably deep. He spent many years in Varanasi for these studies. Although he is a Christian but he admires Hinduism more than his own religion if we go by what he has written so far.

      This description you give of Elst reminds me of Max Mueller. If what you say is true, Elst’s campaign is a repeat of the Max Mueller’s efforts to undercut and undermine Indian culture by deep study and inflicting stab wounds, while admiring Bharat.

      For a long time, it was not clear to Indians that Max Mueller was an agent of the East India Company. If what you say is true, it makes Elst more dangerous. It also proves that some people don’t learn from history.

      And there is truth in his words when he calls us Hindus cowards. And don’t assume you are excluded from this comment.

      Another lovely comment that proves that Elst may be speaking correctly about his chelas and admirers.

      You can exclude yourself by simply kicking Elst’s garbage out of your mind.

      Embrace Elst and you can become a Hindu coward that Elst believes you are, or wants you to be.

      • Kishan said, on April 8, 2013 at 9:17 am

        Anurag it seems the acid in your thoughts is unwashable. Well good luck to you. But I must say what I think about Elst’s comment on us.When I see every day that we (I mean most of us) are scared of criticizing Islam that breeds terrorism in Pakistan and even in our own Kashmir. When we are scared to even mention that in Pakistan the Hindus have been reduced from more than 20% at Independence to about 2% today, when we are afraid to accept the problem of infiltration from Bangladesh; when we deliberately delay publishing relative percentages of communities in the census results of 2011, how can we blame Elst from thinking that we are cowards as we have been for almost a thousand years?

  39. Manu said, on April 8, 2013 at 6:05 am

    Anuraag can you make bhartiya’s out of hindus, muslims etc …Desert bloc is wining ….Its created an ally in Sindhusthan called the Hindu (even the naamkaran was done by them)

    • Anuraag Sanghi said, on April 8, 2013 at 6:29 am

      Manu

      Desert Bloc may win battles.

      But we will win the war. The Islamic world is already under the rule of Western puppets for the last 100 years.

      The Western world itself is deeply in debt to China, Japan, India and Russia. Their economies and industry are completely dependent on the four of us for raw materials, finance, labour, customers, research, manufacture.

      We still have some dinosaur-Hindus among us. They may look big, seem powerful, but have a deep sense of inferiority. They will soon go extinct.

      This not our first war. This will not be the last. We will lose battles.

      But the war, we will win.

      • kcsharma2012 said, on April 11, 2013 at 4:06 am

        Are we even fighting to win the war? We seem to be encouraging our tormentors in the name of secularism to go on and do more of the same to us..


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