Caste System: Its’ Life & Birth
How real is the caste system?
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100 years of a hoax
Strangely, one British hoax that has not been called out, even sixty-five years after independence, is the creation of the caste-system narrative. While many Indians know of Max Muller’s motivations in creation of the Aryan Invasion Theory, very few are aware of how one man created the equally enduring myth of the caste system.
The ethnographer behind the caste system in the 1901 census. In-charge of the 1901 census, as per his biographer
Risley believed that the varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and “meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it. seven racial types. The three fundamental races are – Dravidian, Mongoloid and Indo-Aryan. Four secondary races- Cytho-Dravidian, Aryo-Dravidian, Mongolo-Dravidian and Pre-Dravidian. (extract from Wikipedia).
Risley was also behind the Bengal Partition along communal lines in 1905. On the Bengal Partition, as the Home secretary to the Government of India, in 1904, H. H. Risley, made an official noting:
Bengal united is a power. Bengal divided will pull in several different ways. That is what the Congress leaders feel: their apprehensions are perfectly correct and they form one of the great merits of the scheme… One of our main objects is to split up and thereby weaken a solid body of opponents to our rule. (via The Long View: The Partition Before Partition – NYTimes.com).
Caste system is a hoax, invented by the British, to expand and keep up power in India.
Have faith and belief
For the next few paragraphs, let us assume that colonial history is correct.
As per Western notions about Indian history, Indian society along with its caste system was set up by Brahmins between 400BC-800AD. Goes Western history, from circa 800 AD, Islāmic invaders started conquering India – and for the last 1200 years India has been ruled by Muslims or Christians. Both these Islāmic and Christian rulers have no use for the caste system.
Assuming ‘Hindu’ elites established this system in 1200 years, why have Muslim, Christian and Secular rulers not been able to remove it in the last 1200 years.
Looters and rentier
It cannot be removed, because it does not exist.
What exists today is a system where the Indian economy was handed over to different communities by Islāmic and Christian rulers – under the Iqtedaari system, Jagirdaari system, Zamindaari system.
This created a ‘rentier’ class of land owners, who ill-treated the former land owners, whose wealth was seized and re-distributed.
Numbers shall set you free
10% of Brahmins kept 90% of Indians as slaves?
Keep in mind Kabir Das’ doha –
साईं इतना दीजिये, जामे कुटुंब समाए, मैं भी भूखा ना रहूँ, साधू ना भूखा जाये|
sai itna dijiye jaame kutumb samaye, main bhi bhukha naa raho, sadhu na bhukha jaye
(God give me just enough to take care of my family; and feed myself and any saadhu who comes to my house).
In a society, which reflected this belief, that had few super-rich Brahmins, the caste-system narrative implied that Brahmins looted everybody, kept slaves and suppressed everybody.
What kind of fools were the rest of the people?
When the same British tried suppressing people, between Buxar (1765) to Indian Independence (1947), more than 200 revolts, wars, battles, bombings, terrorist plots were executed. The British needed a highly paid army of more than 10 lakh soldiers to suppress the Indian population.
Now these are numbers.
Where is any source about Brahmin wealth, Brahmin armies, required to suppress people?
Indians not allowed
British who had No Indians Allowed signboards in many places promoted themselves as liberators. Probably, people also need to see Europe to understand what is the real caste system really is.
In Protestant Britain, there are hardly any Catholics. Protestant Germany has a few more than Britain Catholics. Now Britain and Germany were both Catholic countries 500 years ago. In Protestant USA, there has been only one Catholic President in more than 200 years. There is hardly any Protestant population in France of Italy.
To repeat a point – If Brahmins have been in power for 1200 years, and established the caste-system, why have Muslim, British and now Secular rulers not been able to remove it in the lat 1200 years.
Words … words … words
Words and logic apart, there is visual evidence that the caste system as ideated and portrayed by the British did not exist. Below is a selection of 5 images of India, dated between 1799-1899, before Risley came out with his caste-system ideas.
What these paintings show in great detail, is how in Indian bazaars and streets, there was a vibrant trade in rotis (unleavened bread), makhan (butter), mithai (sweet-meats). How could this be possible in a society where untouchability was rampant and embedded?
I’ve forgotten this before
My father remembers that his summer vacations were spent in serving cooled water from earthen pots with mur-mura-chana handfuls, in Hyderabad, at the side of the Hyderabad-Mumbai highway. There were widespread culture of piyaoos where water was served – at many centres with mur-mura (popped rice) and roast chana (lentil).
All, from all castes and religions were welcome, many times even persuaded, to slake their thirst and take the edge of their appetite with chana-mur-mura.
Bon appétit!
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- Abdar (seller of cool drinks) in Kolkatta (earlier Calcutta) c.1799 | Etching by Solvyns Franz Balthazar (1760-1824). | Click for image.
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- Butter seller in Kolkatta (earlier Calcutta) c.1799 | Etching titled Makhanwala by Solvyns Franz Balthazar (1760-1824). | Click for image.
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- A seller of roti (unleavened bread) in Kolkatta (earlier Calcutta) c.1799 | Etching titled A Rooty-Wolla by Solvyns Franz Balthazar (1760-1824). | Click for image.
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- A Sweetmeat-seller of Lahore; Date:ca. 1885 (made); Artist: John Lockwood Kipling, for sometime Principal, Jamsetjee Jeejeebhoy School of Art and Industry in Mumbai (then Bombay); father of Rudyard Kipling; from the Victoria & Albert Museum | Click for image.
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- This painting was used for Rudyard Kipling’s book – Kim | A Drink by the way – a street scene in Bombay. 1876 by John Griffiths | Click for image.
Related articles
- 1857 – A Failed ‘Mutiny’? (2ndlook.wordpress.com)
- Death of Indian Shipbuilding (2ndlook.wordpress.com)
- Never cast(e) in stone (thehindu.com)
- Indian History – Blind At Birth? (quicktake.wordpress.com)
- Shikha Dalmia on the Persistence of India’s Caste System (reason.com)
- The Four Class-System (Chaturvarn Vyavastha) of Indian Society (jagatnova.wordpress.com)
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The Caste system is not an inversion by the British. It was there already there. The Varnasram is the beginning of caste system. That was introduced as a division of labour or tasks on proficiency basis. Originally there were only 4 Varnas namely the Brahmin, Kshatriya (warriors), Vaisya (trade & business people) and the working class. Though there was this division, any one can move from one group to the other. Then gradually a 2 way action was taking place. The Brahmin by nature of their duties were to stick to some norms of life like getting up very early in the morning, taking bath, elaborate chanting of verses on gods, poojas or worship etc with restrictions on intake of quantity and quality of food. In a week there will at least be 2 – 3 days they are supposed to take food only once a day or only lite food etc. A large part of teh population do not want this type of life. So they left the learning and practicing of holy scriptures. Therefore only few % of the population stuck to this category.
The next group is the Kshatriya (warrior). There is no necessity for them to stick to Brahmin rituals. They can have food of of their choice and have to eat heavy food for the physical and martial training they had to undergo. Since they involve in fighting they used this to their advantage and used the power to rule over all within their areas. Not all persons can stick to this category for the physical rigor involved.
The vaisyas were trading and doing business and in the beginning the trade were by going from place to place and all do not like travel. Besides\s the every one has not the knack for trade.
Then come the skilled and unskilled labour. In this category a large percentage of population can find ease. So this was the biggest group. Here there was no kind of rigid regimen to be followed.
Within each group according to the skill and the nature of duties to be performed sub groups came up which later became as seperate castes.
The outside invaders only used advantage of this caste system for their victories and stanglehold on the natives.
I think you are completely wrong. Naicker expolited Tamilians and made a big fool of them. Perhaps you too are one of the gullible ones.
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I remember my visits to my native village near the border of delhi haryana in late 1980’s… The breakfast in the summer holiday would be at a gujjar’s house… lunch at a barn of jats… and practically eat/drink milk lassi in any house in the neighbourhood… Given that i belong to a brahmin family according to the caste system this would have been our greatest sin… NOT
One of your strange posts. so what about Swami Vivekanand’s observation on the malabar region: “Was there ever a sillier thing before in the world than what I saw in Malabar? The poor ‘Paraiah’ is not allowed to pass through the same street as the high caste man, but if he changes his name to hodge-podge English name or to a Mohamedan name, it is alright. What inference would you draw except that these Malabaris are all lunatics, their homes so many lunatic asylums and they are to be treated with derision by every race in India until they mend their manners and know better. Shame upon them that such wicked and diabolical customs are allowed.”
This created a ‘rentier’ class of land owners, who ill-treated the former land owners, whose wealth was seized and re-distributed.
What about ODyer’s /ODwyer’s orders asking people in Amritsar to crawl on all fours.
What about signboards that said ‘Indians Not Allowed’. What about not allowing merit /qualification based based employment opportunities in India to Indians – but reserved for the British?
Was that caste-system?
When Islamic kings imposed jaziya tax? When Islamic and Christian rulers distributed lands and wealth to collaborators, co-religionists, it was not caste system? But when the same behaviour pattern was repeated by non-Islamic/Christian people it was their ‘evil’ religion!
the high caste followed a life style of hygienic & ritual purity, and that’s the reason pariah’s were not allowed to enter high caste street.. this is the reason for such kinds of incidents in many places..
Vivekananda was the first one who invented the concept of Hinduism, based on Brother Hood, and NOT on dharmic principles.. Only religious mobsters had the concept of brotherhood, who should be protected at any cost, even if he did wrong.. but dharmic principles of those times, demanded that one’s own relation should be outcasted if he violated his varna dharma.. The popular “Smartha Vicharam” conducted in 19th century, by Travancore king is an example.. Many namboodris and Nairs were banished from his kingdom, when they all had illicit relationship with a widow..
you are finally here.
actually vivekanand said that some brahmins were fishermen and others were baluchis.
I kind of understood the possibile origins and necessity of caste system for prosperity of India before British loot. What I still dont understand is the heridetary nature of it. I know Lord Krishna explicitely stated that “It is the character, not birth that decides your caste”. Despite that why is intercaste marriages is a big issue now?
I am not a supporter of intercaste marriage or anhilation of caste system. But I am worried about a trend i observed these days.
Many parents because of fear that their sons/daughters might marry other caste people are fixing the matches in a hurry without much research. The famous telugu slogan “అటు ఏడు తరాలు ఇటు ఏడు తరాలు చూడాలి” (atu edu taraalu itu edu taraalu choodaali/ have to research 7 generations on this side and 7 generations on that side referring to father’s and mother’s relatives) is not followed much during marriages.
As a reaction to that, many young people are falling in “love” with the same caste people and without much thought are getting into marriage.
When such hurried marriages happen, there is more chance of the couple fighting more. This is slowing starting the thought in many minds that marriage institution is not so suitable for individual freedom and is detrimental to one’s own career.
On the other hand, inter caste couple are being encouraged to get divorced even for the slightests of quarrels but an even horrific actual quarrels or domestic violence cases are being tolerated by parents if it is a same caste marriage.
I am worried about the loss of faith in marriage because of such actions by many people with a stupid interpretation of caste system. I want to know if my observations are just an anamoly or indeed happening in various parts of India. Of course, every case is different when it comes to marriage but I cant help but to worry about this phenomenon. How to be sure that this is just corelation and not causation?
Parental consent in classical India was discouraged. Dashratha came to know of impending marriage of Ramachandra with Janaki Sita after the ‘deal’ was done – thanks to Vishwamitra.
Kunti came to know of Draupadi’s impending wedding after the Arjuna participated and won her in the swayamwar.
Krishna urged Subhadra to elope with Arjuna. Arjuna did not seek any blessings while getting married to Uloopi.
When Bhishma ‘captures’ Amba, Ambika, Ambalika for Chitrangandha and Vichitraveerya, he gets little support. You cannot take ‘help’ in a swayamwara. The suitor has to do the job himself. A hired hand like Bheeshma is taboo. While Bheeshma’s sense of personal honor was always high, his sense of ‘dharma‘ was always confused.
But interestingly, among Asuras it was common.
So Hidimbi seeks Kunti’s help to ‘snare’ Bheema. Surpanka seeks Ravana’s help to snare Raghu Ramachandra.
I presume in the last 200-600 years, with rampant slavery, massacres, genocide, by Islamic and Christian armies have modified marriage patterns. Greater societal support and help was needed in such situations – and we see greater intervention in the marriages now. But this needs greater study.
Importantly, society’s commitment to make universal marriage work remained. So while the objective has remained, the mode has changed.
If you ask any lawyer or police authorities, the answer, roundly and clearly is Section 498A.
The law and the logic of the Section 498A has made the marital home into a battlefield. And sure enough each year, some 150,000 marriages are getting ruined because of this.
The curious thing to note in this is the number of NGOs who are behind this law – and who have raised decibel levels to shrieking levels.
The law and logic behind section 498A is synthetic and irrelevant to India. All these Do-Gooder NGOs are working hard to ensure that the system of marriage in India becomes like a Western equivalent – a temporary arrangement for a few.
Your query is actually very little about the ‘caste-system’ – and more about the attack on the Indian system of Universal Marriage.
Thank You for the reply. I am very much interested to study and understand the history of caste system. One of my friends recommended “Castes of Mind” by Nicholas Dirks. Started reading it this weekend.
Could you please suggest other works to help me understand the nature of caste system?
Rohith – All my reading, sources, ideas are embedded in the various posts. Maybe you can share your reading of Dirk’s Caste System book after you finish.
Rohit,
Pls visit my blog for more details on caste system..
psenthilraja.wordpress.com
Is there a difference between how Jim Crow laws in US treated African Americans And how we treated dalits (Untouchables)?
For example,
1) Segregation in Public Spaces – an African American had to drink from a segregated water cooler. Very similar to two tumbler system.
2) Education – Black children prohibited from attending some schools. Similar to how Sudra were prohibited from learning Vedas or performing any brahmincial duties. (In Ramayana, Ram kills Shambuka simply because he was performing tapasya (ascetic exercises) which he was not supposed to do as he was a Shudra by birth.)
3) Marriage – Marriage between white and other minorities like Africans, Japanese, Native American were considered an illegal. Similar to how IN-caste marriages are pressurized now in India. And what is written in Manu-Smitri about inter-caste marriages is more harsh than Jim Crow Laws – Quoting Manu Smitri — ” If a person has sexual intercourse with a consenting women of his own varna, he is not to be punished. But if a person of lower varna has sexual intercourse with a woman of higher varna, with or without her consent, he is to be killed. ”
( Note: These are not my arguments, I am just reproducing what I have heard from Elite Indians when I try to defend Varna And Jati System).
Rampant or rare is the issue.
We have Bachchi Karkaria talking-down to Hindus about the caste system. But turn around and see – the Parsis are willing to extinct- but Parsi leaders will not allow Parsis to marry outside the Parsi community.
Now this NOT like Jim Crow laws.
Parsi discrimination between those who marry inside or outside their community is without the might of the State behind it. It is based on consent and free will.
The Syedna who supervises his flock of Muslim believers in India is able to obtain consent for many practices – which may seem compulsive at first sight. But finally, it is based on agreement and consensus.
Jim Crow laws were based on the power of the State.
We have never had State-mandated and State-approved slavery and discrimination.
Big difference.
Is it true that Rama killed some one just because he is sudra and doing meditation? If this is true, how is this justified? As far as I know Varna vyavasta started only after Manu Smrithi. Is Manu Smrithi existed prior to Trethayugaa? Is varna vyavastha existed during the Ramayana period?
You are having a problem because you are assuming that:
1. Manusmriti was a fixed; cast in stone document. No classical Indian text is like that. Everyone had freedom to accept, change, mmodify or reject it. So, the Manusmriti that you see today is not the same as what was ‘originally’ written. Vishnu purana also mentions that different ages had different Indras; different Vyasas; different Manus.
Now try dating which Manu lived when? What is the Ramayana period?
2. The meaning of shudra itself changed at different times. For instance let us have a situation where some poor, from say the USA, dependent on Welfare cheques, with free medical care and free education come to India.
How would these ‘shudras’ feel about India? Which was never a welfare state. Remember Daanveer Karan was not on the side of ‘dharma’. Asura king Bali, known for his ‘charity’ was not on the side of dharma.
Let me give you the context.
Recently we had the case of a beef-eating ceremony by Dalits in Osmania University at Hyderabad. The cow has been venerated in India because as long as a family had a cow, they would not go hungry or starve. Hence, the cow was to venerated. Possibly, this started when India migrated from Saraswati Basin cities to the Ind-Gangetic plains. More than anyone else a cow is vital to the Dalits. However when they cut their nose to spite their face, they are losers.
We have had similar cases in the past – when new converts to the Desert Bloc would insult and provoke their ex-co-believers.
Remember the huge numbers of slaves captured by Islamic, Christian and Mongol armies. Where was the anti-slavery oasis in this world at that time.
Only India.
And I think there hangs a tale.
The answer lies somewhere else. Land rights. In no other part of the world did ‘shudras’ get land ownership – except India. Look at how untouchability (of which I saw very little) has furthewr reduced to nothingness.
As Lydia Polgreen of the nytimes.com reported, there is lesser discrimination in India today than in the USA where slaves were freed more than 150 years ago.
Modern untouchability and discrimination has simpler roots.
a system where the Indian economy was handed over to different communities by Islāmic and Christian rulers – under the Iqtedaari system, Jagirdaari system, Zamindaari system.
This created a ‘rentier’ class of land owners, who ill-treated the former land owners, whose wealth was seized and re-distributed.
What about ODyer’s /ODwyer’s orders asking people in Amritsar to crawl on all fours.
What about signboards that said ‘Indians Not Allowed’. What about not allowing merit /qualification based based employment opportunities in India to Indians – but reserved for the British?
Was that caste-system?
When Islamic kings imposed jaziya tax? When Islamic and Christian rulers distributed lands and wealth to collaborators, co-religionists, it was not caste system? But when the same behaviour pattern was repeated by non-Islamic/Christian people it was their ‘evil’ religion!
I feel grateful on behalf of my culture for the work you are doing on this blog. It’s hard to understand the perfect values of most ancient culture by today’s imperfect brains. Most of the time the Varna system is considered as mere a social structure to rule the suppressed while the downtrodden were happier then ever during that period when Varnashram Dharma was prevailing in this land. I am also writing about MY EXPERIMENTS WITH CASTE SYSTEM and I invite the writers and readers of this blog to take a look at this post. सुद्ध हिंदी में: चातुर्वर्णं मया सृष्टं http://shuddhahindimein.blogspot.com/2012/01/blog-post.html
Thanks for writing.
Great post Anuraag! People here seem to not be able to differentiate between “caste system” and “caste”. Castes (Jatis) existed from time immemorial, what did not exist prior to the British was the systematization of these fluid Jatis. Religion of the Book desert cult assumed that these castes were dictated by scripture and lo and behold Manu smriti! But is there anyone in here who can show any purana, smriti that has a catalogue of castes? There is none. so if books didnt create it nor govern it, where is the system??
When you say
you point a very important aspect for various Western distortions. They just cannot think any other way. They have to go by the Book (The Book being Old Testament – Torah; Talmud; Bible; Quran)!
They assume subconsciously that even we follow our Book(s). Though they explicitly understand Indian classical texts were living documents – and anyone could change, add, remove, modify as they wanted.
Sometimes, we are all guilty of ascribing more ‘intelligence’ to the British Raj – even though it may be a simple case of logical progression. And no Grand Design.
Caste is not the same as varna! There are 4 varnas and there are over 7550 castes as per the census of Government of India! But the fact of the matter is all these 7550 and odd castes fall under the reserved category! Only about 4 or 5 castes are not under the reserved category.The very reason why convert moslems and christians are asking for dalit reservation for dalit convert moslems and convert christians! This is a smack in the face of these egalitarian religions that boast of no caste discrimination.Hahahah liars
Sir, can you provide me some slokas from Manu Smrithi with which I can prove that it is not responsible for Casteism and discrimination based on caste mainly untouchability in Hindu Dharma. It will also be helpful to me if you can throw some light on your thoughts abt the birth of caste system in a detailed way.
Hi Anurag,
There is something that keeps troubling my head and I found almost nobody being able to answer this question. Hope I receive an answer from you as you seem knowledgeable enough
If according to our scriptures it its the kali yug & dharma is supposed to decline in this era, why exactly should we try to uphold it?
Don’t.
Go to the side of adharma. Of whatever is popular, fashionable. convenient. Useful. Beneficial.
During the Islamic Raj, many people become more Islamic than the Arabs themselves. Today we have Brown Sahibs who are more British than the British.
A lot of them benefitted – hugely.
There is the great story of Sobha Singh – Khushwant Singh’s father, supposedly, aadhi Dilli ka maalik.
You must be where your heart and mind is. Dont worry. Be happy. Dharm will be safe
With you or without you. With me or without me.
Well thanks for the reply. But i’m asking within an intellectual frame work. Yes I know today adharma is eating our society and yes dharma may survive with or with out me. But the question still remains. Unfortunately our heart and mind to a huge extent is dictated by fear, comparison and social norms. WE are animals prone to conditioning. But when you have an inner light that you have to do the right thing and you know even if it is hard it is what is going to finally make us happy there remains this doubt….. what is the point when our scriptures (Which i know empirically has a huge amount of truth in it) itself states that at this point of time society is going to stand on only one leg and there is going to be a decline of dharma no matter what, as that is going to lead to the end of this cycle and a new cycle is going to begin (this has a lot of truth even scientifically). Then why fight against adharma even if you want to. Its like fighting a lost battle!!!
i’m sorry for the reply… understood your point a lil late… so what your saying is if you have a choice of choosing between the right and wrong and if your mind says do the wrong as it is beneficial and your heart says no… you would suggest i go ahead with doing the wrong??
Actually, I have a simpler answer for you.
Dont confuse yourself with Dharma-adharma; kaliyug-satyug etc.
Just simply go out and buy gold.
It may seem bizarre, but that is the simplest solution to what you see as problems in this world today. If gold comes into the hands of individuals and people, the system will right itself.
Just go out and buy some gold.
So never fight lost battles.
Karthi Sivaraman @octotus
Let us take step back and go through this exploitation narrative.
Adult men exploit women (Patriarchal society). Adult men exploit children sexually (Pedophilia). Parents exploit children (child labour). Rich exploit the poor. The Lumpen exploit the Masses. Cities exploit villages. The Powerful Elites exploit the powerless. High caste Hindus exploit the Low Caste Hindus.
Have I missed any elements?
I will leave you to add whatever I have missed.
By using such ‘self-evident’ statements, the system keeps extending itself. The power concentration remains. The faction in power may change – but the exercise of power remains.
Like the Buddha enunciated in Dabbhapuppha Jataka, (captured at the Bharhut sculpture), the power elites set themselves up as ‘honest-brokers’ between feuding factions.
Truth is …
That can only stop when the concentration of power is checked.
That is भारत-तंत्र Bharat-tantra,.
I have studied alot into genetics, and brother, genetics also confirms Indian history.
THIS MAN NEEDS FULL PROMOTION.
Again, the work that you do, is a starting point for others. Thanks.
CASTE BECAME RIGID IN INDIA DURING THE ONSET OF THE ISLAMIC INVASION.
If not a conspiracy, this implies a consensus
– Across 1200 years
– Over 5000 generations
– Between more than 1 million rulers /elites
– Speaking more than 25 different languages
– Having different faith and worship structures
to perpetuate the ‘caste system’.
Any proof, data, documents, hypotheses, patterns, that support this assertion?
http://priyadarshi101.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/the-first-civilization-of-the-world/
Can you please write an article or add the link to the website, that clears up ALL misconceptions about Aryan theory, with something solid like Genetics. The story of India, as you are addressing cannot be addressed, without the current genetic information that has come out over the past 10years. The Aryan theory has been totally disproved, YET, its still sold as an education in India.
India is under colonial rule, the more you understand history, the more you realize how TRUE it is. A colonial education system, history, ideology, a colonially educated media, a colonial congress party, the current miseducation that is taught in india, is done to dilute the truth, and the need for change and justice.
Children are blank slates and what ever you teach them they will form ideas, ideology and opinion based on that information. So the muslims and christian could not convert india, but their faith 100% insists the conversion of the whole world, so india today is run by the abrahamic elite within india, in the form of congress, islamic league and others. To convert others, and cover up the past, what can you do?…
Write the textbooks, that teach the decendants of those persecuted, DISTRACT THEM.
India today, is as if Nazi germany invaded Jerusalem, plundered it, enslaved the people, then set up german christian nazi schools, law, ideology, culture, origins……….The jewish children sent to such a school, come out pro german, sympathetic to the german invasion, display favourable attiudes towards germany and german culture and are less welcoming to their own jewish culture, roots and history.This my friend is INDIA today, replace Jewish for Hindu, sikh, buddhist and jain, and replace nazi for christian/islamimc alliance.
How can you disprove something that does not exist?
You can prove that Mahatma Gandhi existed at a point in time. Can you prove that a person named Xdankow Mhalashi does not exist?
The Aryan Invasion Theory has never been proven. So, how can you disprove it.
Anyway, there are hundreds of learned people with budgets of tens of crores to do this. They are doing a great job.
Another idea for an article, would be to explain the close links between Sanatan Dharma and Buddism. Explain how Hindu kings built buddhist temples. etc these connections between the two systems needs promoting. If we can prove in the past, that their was no religious violence in india between the dharmic faiths, and it was a continued progression between all, then that unites the people and perceptions of india. It also creates a Dharmic Block against the Desert Block faiths. The Sikh bani, heavily pays respects to sanatan dharma, the sikh deception takes place during 1897 by the British when they set up the Singh Sabha as the offical representation of Sikhism, which of course was made to mirror abrahamic ideology and sikhism for the last 150years has been heavily corrupted. What the british did was create ego lust, desire in india, between the sects, to create an identity and then let them defend that identity as if it was their own. So before abrahamic invasions, most faiths where respectful of each other, and it wasnt a case of were not you, and your not us, but after the invasions, massive plunder, loss of wealth created a broken society, and the British chose people to act Indian in name with the desire to ultimately convert. The only reason why Aryan theory is still told , because its protected by the christian.islamic allience. One thing people NEVER get, the creation of ARYAN theory is to give support to abrahammic concept of Noah and his three son lineage of the world.
Just one direct question. Caste became more rigid in the north than the south, correct?…which would have been down to the threat of invasions from outsiders….genetics show that caste became rigid, no moving up and down the varna, around 1000years ago which was during the onset of the islamic invasion, so when buddha mentions the brahmins who state they are highest and more pure, and the lowest are not pure, what were the conditions of india at that time, for the Brahamins to make such a statement?….Also my understanding was caste was fluid, people moved up and down, their was flexability, the scriptures make no real references to low and high caste, or low birth ( am i correct in saying that, or are they texts asserting this?)….then Buddhas coontinued attack on caste rigidity MUST have been based on SOMETHING, rite?…Unless what we know of Buddha and his opinions on Caste have been severly distorted…….
One more thing, is it fair to say that caste is a social structure not religious, because more and more genetic info is coming out, and from what i know, caste in india could be older than 12,000years old. (possible 20,000) taking this into consideration, caste structure predates all religious though in india. Any thoughts?
Pls see my comments above on
– April 23, 2012 at 8:01 am
– May 27, 2012 at 12:37 am
One last comment, if the swatika as you say may represent the four varnas, then why would buddhism continue the use of it, unless Buddhism accepted the varna system?
Yes.
Gautama Buddha specifically supported chatar-varnashrama – and necessary background, links, info in the Bharattantra post.
I know there is a dispute as to the birth of buddha, what do you consider it to be?….
Why does it state that Krishna was a asura.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasa
Wikipedia i know is not the whole truth, but the allegations that Krishna
The term krsnavonih in RV 2.20.7 has been interpreted by Asko Parpola as meaning “which in their wombs hid the black people”. Sethna (1992) writes, referring to a comment by Richard Hartz, that “there is no need to follow Parpola in assuming a further unexpressed word meaning “people” in the middle of the compound krsnayonih”, and the better known translation by Griffith, i.e. “who dwelt in darkness” can be considered as essentially correct.[4] Another scholar, Hans Hock (1999), finds Karl Friedrich Geldner’s translation of krsnayonih (RV 2.20.7) as “Blacks in their wombs” and of krsnagarbha (RV 1.101.1) as “pregnant with the Blacks” “quite recherché” and thinks that it could refer to the “dark world” of the Dasas.
In RV 4.16.13, Geldner has assumed that “krsna” refers to “sahasra” (thousands). But this would be grammatically incorrect. If krsna would refer to “sahasra”, it should be written as krsnan (acc. pl. masc.). Hans Hock (1999) suggests that “krsna” refers to “puro” (forts) in this verse.
For sure the Vedic writers wrote of the Dasa-Dasyus as people who lived in evil or darkness. The RV 2.2.7[1] says, “Indra the Vrtra-slayer, Fort-destroyer, scattered the Dasa hosts who dwelt in darkness.”
A Dasyu is a member of an aboriginal people in India encountered and embattled by the invading Aryans (c. 1500 bc). They were described by the Aryans as a dark-skinned, harsh-spoken people. They lived in fortified places from which they sent out armies. They may be considered the original Sudras, or labourers, who served the three higher classes of Brahmin, Kshatriya (warrior), and Vaishya (mercantile), from whose ritual communion they were excluded.[9]
The main difference between the Aryas and the Dasas in the Rig Veda is a difference of religion.[10] Already A. A. Macdonell and A. B. Keith (1912) remarked that: “The great difference between the Dasyus and the Aryans was their religion… It is significant that constant reference is made to difference in religion between Aryans and Dasa and Dasyu.” The Dasas and Dasyus are also described as brahma-dvisah in the Rig Veda,[11] which Ralph T.H. Griffith translates as “those who hate devotion” or “prayer haters”. Thus Dasa has also been interpreted as meaning the people that don’t follow the same religion as the Aryans. Rig Veda 10.22.8 describes the Dasa-Dasyus as a-karman (non-performers of Aryan sacrifices), anya-vrata (observers of other rites) and in Rig Veda 10.105.8 they are described as anrc (non-singer of laudatory hymns). In RV 8.70.11 they are described as a-deva-yu (not regarding Deva ).[12]
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In your opinion is the ABOVE PURE NONSENSE?
So their is no reference to Krishna being an Asura?
Are these commentaries then distorted, manipulated to serve a abrahamic agenda? Do know or have the correct interpretations given on wiki, also can you confirm whether the use of Krishna is correct
Thanks,
The link where buddha mentions greece and cambodia, in that body of text, the brahmins of that age quoted by the buddhist, where insisting on purity of the brahmin caste, do you think that was localised mainly in northern india, also in your opinion do you think this thought among brahmins of that time was widespread, and impacted soceity? Thanks. Great site.
I think you must see the context.
India was settling into a post-Saraswati society and becoming Gangetic Plains culture. After nearly the entire region went through an upheaval, probably the Brahmins became a more politically powerful – even without a political position.
This power probably made them more rigid – and abusive of the trust. Result – more superstition. Increasing concentration of power.
In this situation the Shakyamuni walked in. Coming from a traditionally Absolute Ruler culture, the Bharattantra system was a novel experience.
His dispute over the wounded swan, his renunciation of power, was probably seen as defection from the Shakya system of Absolute Ruler to a the egalitarian Bharattantra system – then known as Dharma.
Buddha’s core region of operation was the Indo-Gangetic plains upto Greater Bengal (Bihar, Orissa and current East+West Bengal.
How British socialism created poverty and caste inequality
http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column_how-british-socialism-created-poverty-and-caste-inequality_1727277
[…] and fabrications remain mostly unchallenged in our academy due to vested interests. Regarding the caste system, much has been written by both western and Indian scholars to set the record straight […]
I’d like to mention Nicholas Dirk’s seminal study on the birth of the modern caste system. A sample (pdf) is also available online.
Regarding “krsnavonih”, my humble suggestion that it refers to a astrophysics phenomenon – black hole! Possibly not connected to race/caste/ethnic types at all.
I am incompetent to decipher Rg vedic texts, but a lot of alternative interpretations are possible. Example:
Purandara, the fort-destroyer could have a “Kundalini” interpretation. When doing Kundalini yoga, the aspirant faces many obstacles and “buffers”. These buffers are strong and fortress-like. With the help of prayers to Indra, these buffers are destroyed. And then “Indra the Vrtra-slayer, Fort-destroyer, scatters the Dasa hosts who dwell in darkness.” Dasa here are forces that are slaves to various vices. Some of them are the well-known kaama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada and matsarya.
(These are my amateurish readings, not backed by any sources that I know of 🙂
The father of Carnatic music, Purandara Dasa, uses the signature “Purandara Vitthala” in all his compositions, Vitthala being his Ishta Devatha.
I would like to mention Nicholas Dirk’s seminal study on the birth of the modern caste system. A sample (pdf) is also available online.
Regarding “krsnavonih”, my humble suggestion that it refers to a astrophysics phenomenon – black hole! Possibly not connected to race/caste/ethnic types at all.
I am incompetent to decipher Rg vedic texts, but a lot of alternative interpretations are possible. Example:
Purandara, the fort-destroyer could have a “Kundalini” interpretation. When doing Kundalini yoga, the aspirant faces many obstacles and “buffers”. These buffers are strong and fortress-like. With the help of prayers to Indra, these buffers are destroyed. And then “Indra the Vrtra-slayer, Fort-destroyer, scatters the Dasa hosts who dwell in darkness.” Dasa here are forces that are slaves to various vices. Some of them are the well-known kaama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada and matsarya.
(These are my amateurish readings, not backed by any sources that I know of 🙂
The father of Carnatic music, Purandara Dasa, uses the signature “Purandara Vitthala” in all his compositions, Vitthala being his Ishta Devatha.
Auraagji,
I think that castes did exist and it is not a pure invention of the British. The British introduced a lot of half truths, and more importantly the ordering of the castes as superior and inferior. It was never the case previously when each caste( out of pride, naturally) considered other castes to be lesser. For example if Brahmins looked down upon shudras, the shudras also considered Brahmins as beggars and weaklings. These minor games of one upmanship never were taken seriously and practical consequences of such beliefs were minimal and never affected anyone physically or financially. The mischief of the Britisher was to officially place one caste above another, favoritism, and then sowing dissension among the various castes… A classic case of chanakya niti.
You have made a point about Brahmins becoming powerful after the shift to the Ganges basin, and the beginning of superstition, etc. But from my readings, I get the impression that brahmins were essentially people who had undergone the long and arduous training in Vedic practices. There was an ethnic bias, but it was not completely closed to outsiders and many non family people also became Brahmins after the long period of study. In the environment of gurukuls, naturally secular subjects also got attention, and we see the emergence of great centres like takshashila and kashi. There is indirect evidence that the Brahmin caste was based on scholastic merit. Panini, patanjali, jivaka all mention their mothers but their fathers are not known with certainty. Similar is the case with asanga and vasubandhu, who were sons of a lady by different fathers. Even when the gotras are mentioned in this age, it may merely mean the gotra of the teacher and not necessarily of the father.
In this and the previous ages, brahmins are mentioned to be very poor, begging at the court of kings, even forced to eat the leftovers of tribal people. They were not too well off, and this is reflected across the literature of the period.
I think the caste solidified and got its rigidity after some kings started to grant tax free lands to Brahmins. Earlier, there was a logic to this as Brahmins, with their education and organizational skills were effective in bringing lands under the plough and thus generate more revenue. But now it essentially became a freebie, ostensibly for merit. This resulted in families wanting to keep lands amongst themselves and enjoy it in perpetuity, and probably the reason why marriage rules became rigid. Of course the Islamic and British rule duplicated this amongst the other Jatis as well, from which we get the stratification seen today.
Anurag,
You and parag tope see caste system only through Mughal perspective.. It seems you are assuming that muslim kings had the ability to create new professions and assign that to hindu people.. is that logical?
Truth is that jathi was existing even before muslim invasion, and after conquering, muslims just gave preference to some trading jathis,, but that doesnt mean, they created jathis..
The jathis was the component of Ethnic societies, like marathas, telengana, mythila, etc.. these ethnic societies are nothing but ancient dhesams of our bharatha varsham.. for eg, Mythila is the ancient Videha dhesam of King Janaka.. the jathis of that mythila society are part of that dhesam..
The jathi setup has to be studied freshly based on our own history.. Hope you wont be having any issue in accepting that Bharatha varsham was NOT a single centralised state.. it was a collection of different dhesams.. and which means, each dhesam should have their own social setup.. and by studying those dhesams and the social setup, we can easily decode jathis..
To quote another example, there is a jathi called Kalinga Vysya, who are still present in the kalinga region (south western orissa)..
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