Forgotten Indian Diaspora In Europe – 1000 years ago
Renaissance and Enlightenment
In Europe, kidnapping children was considered legal for most of 1500AD-1750AD. On one condition – you had to kidnap Roma Gypsy children! More than 25,000 children kidnapped. No problem. Everybody sleeps peacefully at night. Switzerland was doing this till 1973!
Roughly, between 1500 to 1750, it was legal in Europe to hunt human beings. Yes! Just like hunting for deer in India, or hunting buffalo in Africa or fox-hunting in Britain. Yes! You could hunt human beings. As long as the humans you hunted were Roma Gypsies.
In Europe you could be hung to death if you committed the crime of being born – between 1500AD-1750AD! Born as a Roma Gypsy!
Europeans, in the their age of Enlightenment and Renaissance, (1500-1750) could just pick up human slaves – yes, own them like cattle and furniture, if you found one! As long as they were Roma Gypsies. Later you could also sell them for profit!
Ship owners and captains in Europe’s Golden age, (1500-1750) could arrange galley slaves for free. No wages, no salary. You just had to feed them. Use them, abuse them, flog them, kill them, drown them. You could do anything – as long as they were Roma Gypsies.
20th Century Europe
Hitler’s Germany killed 60 lakh Jews in various concentration camps – a broadly accepted figure. Other figures range between 50,00,000-1,00,00,000. This is today estimated at about 50% of the Jewish population.
These concentration camps (first used by Spaniards in Cuba) were discovered by Allied troops as they drove back German troops. All concentration camp commanders were tried at Nuremberg trials – and sentenced.
After the Wold War 2
The Jews have still not let any of the participants and accessories forget the crime. Swiss banks, the Vatican and various Nazi officials in hiding have been hunted and prosecuted. To make up for this holocaust, guilt laden post-WW2 European and American Governments, gave the Jews a country of their own – Israel. Films have been made on these concentration camps and killings. Elie Wiesel and Menachem Begin have got Nobel Prizes for post WW2 problem management.
Sharing the concentration camps with the Jews were a fringe European group – Roma Gypsies. 80% of the Romany Gypsy population – a greater percentage of Roma Gypsies died than the Jews. The world has little sympathy – and no intention of doing anything about this holocaust. One out of three in a concentration camps were Jews – the rest were Roma Gypsies and others (Jehovah’s Witnesses Spanish Republicans, and ordinary criminals). Estimates of Roma Gypsy deaths in the Nazi holocaust vary and are contradictory – between 2 lakhs to 15 lakhs. A weighted median figure seems to be 5 lakhs – and better figures are difficult as Roma Gypsies were considered unfit for inclusion as human population in various census operations.
Sixty Years Later
In war-crimes trials, Nazis attempted to justify – or differentiate – the killing of Gypsies by stating that they had been punished as criminals, not as Gypsies per se. And they succeeded: although sufficient documents were available immediately after the war, the mass murder of Roma and Sinti was not addressed at the Nuremberg trials, and no Gypsy witnesses were called. To this day, just one Nazi, , Ernst-August Konig, has received a sentence specifically for crimes against Gypsies. (from Bury me standing By Isabel Fonseca).
In 1984, 40 years after the German defeat, Simon Wiesenthal wrote to Elie Wiesel about “the Gypsies had been murdered [in a proportion] similar to the Jews, about 80% of them in the area of the countries which were occupied by the Nazis”. It is now speculated that his espousal of the Gypsy cause cost him the Nobel Prize – and was meant to show Elie Wiesel in poor light. Elie Wiesel supporters claim, allegedly, he was more interested in discrediting Elie Wiesel and less bothered about Romany Gypsy deaths.
After more than 40 years to acknowledge their co-victims, on 16 September 1986, as Elie Wiesel addressed a wide range of audience in his Nobel Peace Prize speech, he stated
“I confess that I feel somewhat guilty towards our Roma friends. We have not done enough to listen to your voice of anguish. We have not done enough to make other people listen to your voice of sadness. I can promise you we shall do whatever we can from now on to listen better” (Tanner 1997).
Elie Wiesel confirms that he feels only somewhat guilty and will do his best to listen - just like Europe and the world does once in a while and complete indifference rest of the time.
Who Are The Roma Gypsies
Till 1867, Roma gypsies were part of European slave population. Their crime – a different language, a different religion and they looked different. After living in Europe for 1000 years, they were considered ‘outsiders’ – and did not mix much with ‘native’ Europeans.
It is the same Roma Gypsies who have contributed to the Spanish cultural icon – Flamenco! It is the Gypsies (along with the Arabs) who brought Indian music systems to Europe – based on which the Western music system developed over the last 300-400 years. The iconic guitar is a modified Indian musical instrument – brought to Europe by the Gypsies, which the West tries ‘passing off’ as their own. But, of course, the Hittites, the Indo Aryans of the Middle East, before them had an instrument similar to the guitar. Why am I not surprised when flamenco style, Gypsy music group, Los Del Rio’s Macarena became a big hit in India. Gypsy music burst on the Western main street with Django Reinhardt’s Jazz – and the birth of modern Western music fuelled by Gypsy music traditions remains completely unacknowledged.
Where did Roma Gypsies come from – they claimed they came from India. But no one was quite sure. Recent DNA mapping done has confirmed what they always claimed – they were from India. A Russian-Roma poet (born in Latvia) Leksa Manush, wrote a the Roma version of the Indian epic poem, Ramayana as “Ramajanam”.
What are we (Indians) doing about these “lost Indian tribe”. Sweet nothing at all!
Birth Of Western Music
Gypsy contribution to the growth of Western musical tradition has been , similarly blanked out from Western history. The spread of Gypsy populations across Europe by the 16th century coincides with the birth of Western music systems – a stripped down version of the 3000-years old Indian music structure.
Hungarian music was Gypsy music arrogated by the White Christian majority to itself – and resented the Gypsy music culture. Western military music came from gypsy music bands of Turkey, Austria and Hungary. Carefully hidden is Bela Bartok’s research into ‘folk’ music and ‘inspiration’, as is the source of Franz Liszt’s Hungarian Rhapsody – a by product of Gypsy music. Verdi wrote the Il Trovatore, in 1853, a story about the clash between the White Christian Spain and a band of Gypsies. Georges Bizet’s, Carmen, another opera about the love of a Spaniard and the Gypsy, Carmen, used Gypsy music and themes considerably – apart from the story itself. In 1859, Franz Liszt wrote, The Gypsies And Their Music In Hungary, a 450-odd page treatise on Gypsy music – and his Hungarian Rhapsody was based on Gypsy music.

Gypsy Music Recordings
After WW1, when parts of Hungary folded into the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Bartok’s access to his ‘inspiration’, the Gypsies (and their music) was also cut off, his music compositions also declined. In the true ‘cultural dacoity’ mode, Bartok (after emigrating to USA), covered his tracks and found ingenious ways to deny the Gypsy influence. In fact, the wax cylinders on which Bartok and Leos Janacek copied Gypsy music remain sought after items.
The Gypsies In Provence
Modern day Roma Gypsies made their first mark in Europe in Provence. The richness of the Roma Gypsy music (of India) overwhelmed the people of Southern France. They whole heartedly, assimilated the Gypsies (then known as troubadours) and their culture – warmly. 500 years later, across a bleak Europe, the French poet Voltaire, the English WB Yeats, lamented and longed for Provence and the richness of the Provencal culture. Modern French cuisine, wine culture and tradition took root in this very area – and survived in spite of the best attempts by the Church to exterminate it in the Albigensian Crusade.
Difficult Issue?
What makes handling Roma Gypsy question difficult is a difficult history. Is perceived Roma Gypsy ‘crime’ a result of systematic deprivation of opportunity or a cause of their value system or due to centuries of persecution? Is their alleged ‘lack of professional accomplishment due to disinclination or due to barriers? Or even a disability issue – as claimed by some Europeans?
How is it that no Indian group causes the problems that Europeans accuse Roma Gypsies of? Indians in every corner of the world have prospered – but not Roma Gypsies in Europe! If white European allegations have any truth, the truth also is that Roma Gypsy character has been perverted in Europe.
Possibly, it is the European handling. The handling of the Meena tribe by Rajasthan’s royal rulers is illustrative. The British colonial rulers declared the Meena tribe as a “criminal” tribe (much like Europe’s treatment of Gypsies). The Meenas were among the (now) 6 crore people declared as criminals at one stroke – much like the racist administration in Europe. Or the manner in which native populations were wiped out by Anglo-Saxons in USA, Canada and Australia.
In India, Rajput rulers of Rajasthan, on the other, made these ” reputed criminals” as their treasury supervisors. The fame of the Meena treasury keepers spread all over India – while the British attempts at “Meena genocide” in India failed. The rest of India refused to participate in these pogroms – unlike the Europeans. Free India de-notified these tribes in 1952 – and Indian law makers initially refused to look at crime in a racist manner. Subsequently, they reverted back to colonial laws - and that is a tragedy.
Europeans need to do more to understand the Roma Gypsies – and provide the much deserved climate and structure for Roma Gypsies to prosper – if they care, that is.
Indian Role
If India wants an international role, other countries and peoples will judge us by how we treat our own people first. Other countries are unlikely to let India have an international role, if our (Indian) national role is indifferent and dubious. If Indian professionals want to play an international role, they must be in a position to take up international issues. If Indian media wants to be be on world stage, they must take up issues that others in the world are not taking up!
PS – I did find one lonely Indian, Daisy Grewal who empathises with these lost Romani Gypsies Indians.
Update – And then came some more.
There is Late Weer Rajendra Rishi, a former officer of the Indian Foreign Service, interpreter to Jawaharlal Nehru, wrote a book on the Roma Gypsies. He set up the Indian Institute Of Roma Studies at Chandigarh. He also organized two International Romani festivals in Chandigarh (in 1976 and 1983). Last heard he was struggling to permanently house the Roma collection that he built up. In 1974, he published the Multi lingual Romani Dictionary. Friend Parag Tope sent me a link to the Roma Gypsy Wikipedia.
Romani Gypsy story is a lot like India too – as put (in a moment of despair perhaps) : -
यूनान-ओ-मीस्र-ओ रूमा, सब मीट गए जहाँ से, अब तक मगर है बाक़ी, नाम ओ नीशान हमारा,
कुछ बात है के हस्ती,मीटती नहीं हमारी, सदीओं रहा है दुश्मन, दौर ऐ ज़माना हमारा
Never mind, this too shall pass.


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Have you ever heard that the Romani Gypies may be the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel?
Stan – My knowledge about Gypsy history is recent. From what little I understand, the Gypsies should stop trying to be anything but Gypsies. The Gypsies are different. Period.
Any attempts by the Gypsies to ingratiate with the Jews (by saying that Gypsies are one of the “lost tribes of Israel” or with Christians on the basis of fables of stealing the last nail from Christ’s crufixion or God’s desire that let the Gypsies should let be; will be met with scorn by the oppressors and will serve as justification for continued oppression.
Usage of Gandhiji’s strategy (outlined below) will be an excellent idea.
1. Start with a (genuine) internal (Pan Euro) reform in the Gypsy society.
2. Build a political and intellectual leadership in the Gypsy society.
3. Meet the oppressors with unmitigated and uncompromising (democratic and lawful methods of) opposition. (Gypsies don’t need to be in a hurry. They have suffered for 1000 years. Another few years wont make a difference.
Gandhiji had a Jewish solution – which would have avoided the holocaust. The Jews scoffed at that idea. You can look at more details on this at “India’s biggest success – Gandhiji”
Above all – have self belief.
[...] Sweet nothing at all! Difficult Issue? What makes handling Roma Gypsy society difficult is a difficult history. Is Roma Gypsy crime a result of systematic deprivation of opportunity or a cause of their value system. …via Google Blog Search: roma issues gypsy [...]
[...] like Romani Gypsy and Australian aboriginal children were taken away from their parents, Red Indian children were also [...]
[...] happen considering the low income levels. Fancy theory apart, to my mind, it is this exposure to skullduggery by Western Governments (to which they are exposed) which causes this low [...]
[...] Forgotten Indian Diaspora In Europe – 1000 years ago [...]
[...] like Romani Gypsy and Australian aboriginal children were taken away from their parents, Red Indian children were also [...]
What are we (Indians) doing about these “lost Indian tribe”. Sweet nothing at all!
Firstly, they aren’t Indians. Just like me and my INDIAN family are not Polish/Finnish (this was established by a DNA study my ancestors originate from Eastern Europe who migrated to India around 1000 AD).
Secondly, what are we Indians doing to our own version of Roma: the backward banjaras, bhils and 160 million “untouchables” -persecution is no less. At least, 30% of Indians aren’t really Indian to us in the real sense. Therefore, we (Indians) as pots shouldn’t call the kettle (Europeans) black.
European countries have human rights, civil rights etc. Present generation of Europeans is more educated and civilized than their forefathers. We still have at least 50 years to reach that stage.
Finally, India is overpopulated. I don’t think we need 15 million gypsies to add to the wonderful diversity we already have in our country. I think Gypsies are the problem of the European people. I’m sure their treatment is improving day by day. We can only hope for the best.
BTW, here is a pic of a Romani girl from Czech Republic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Romany_girl_from_cz_2005.jpg Well, she looks exactly like North Indian girls. I might “rescue” her -looks quite sexy to me. Here are more Romanis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NadezhdaSliven.jpg they look somewhat like Indians/South Americans.
Incidentally, many people when they see MODERN-DAY Indians from India, they build automatic connections. We have resemblence with Hispanics from North America, Mestizos of Mexico and several “Indian” tribes of countries like Peru, Chile etc. I once met two guys in a hotel in Bangkok and went and said, “Excuse me, are you Indians?” They looked surprised and later shook my hands, “No we are Chileans. Nice to meet you.”
Indian diaspora is EVERYWHERE. The world is India.
Same thing. Read the post again.
i dont under stand your comments and for your information most gypsy do very good alot are million airs so you better do your studys just a little better how do u think we survied all these years like a holucast and no country and the only thing to depend on is our minds with out any scooling from gaza and your way of life we are a hidden town in gods heart some thing most people can not under stand we are blessed people in every tribe of people there is rich and poor good and bad but we all have one thing in common no matter what we have god living in our hearts
Hi all great information here and good thread to comment on.
I am an adict to training and really want to get to my best this year!
Can I ask though – how did you get this picked up and into google news?
Very impressive that this blog is syndicated through Google and is it something that is just up to Google or you actively created?
Obviously this is a popular blog with great data so well done on your seo success..
personally, I can’t stand gypsies. I think the sooner they go back to India the better – for both Europeans and Gypsies. Their integration proved to be impossible.
http://gypsyplague.blogspot.com/
I am sure that there must be a lot of people who cant stand each other – which does not give them the right to ’send away’ people. By extending your logic, if I cant stand you, I can ’send’ you away – from the Earth itself. Which is what Europe did for centuries. I thought Europe was ‘cured’. But I see, I am wrong.
I am sure after being in Europe for 1000 years, the Gypsies have as much rights as you (or anyone) in Europe, to stay and lead lives as per their choosing. Roma Gypsies are politically, as much European, as you are!
‘Modern’ Europe, which is twice the size of India, I am sure is not so ‘backward’, that they cannot live with a population of which is one-third of India – without killing each other.
If however, Europe does want the option to ‘cleanse’ the Gypsies, it just proves how ‘modern’, ‘civilized’ and ‘advanced’ they are.
Let them just go back to India or wherever they came from. I don’t hate them, just don’t want them to live in my country.
A millenium wasn’t enough for them the become normal citizens of the countries they inhabit. They still don’t want work like other people. It’s easier to beg and/or steal.
They are between 5 and 10 % of the population of my country but yet they are responsible for at least 60% of the crimes here. For example when you hear that someone have entered a widow’s house, tortured, repeatedly raped and killed her in 9 out of 10 times the criminals are gypsies. The vast majority of them don’t pay for water/electricity so we are required to pay for their utilities. And so on, and so on……
There are other minorities in my country -Russians, Armenians and It seems that they have adapted pretty well into local societies. Armenians and Russians are respected for their culture ( i mean their history, traditions and etc.) and personal achievements.
I don’t think that we’ll continue to live together. Either we or they will have to go away.
http://gypsyplague.blogspot.com/
This is an example of one of their their innocent crimes. The annoying thing is that it happens on a daily basis everywhere they go….
Just take them back to India AND STAY THERE, we’ll stay in Europe and woudn’t come to your country. Deal???
[...] the low income levels. Fancy theory apart, to my mind, it is the ’sword fatigue’ in response to constant exposure by Western Governments (to which they are exposed) which causes this low [...]
ROMANIA GYPSYES IS LIKE SAYNG WOMEN WOMEN.
AND THEY ARE NOT ROMANI THEY CALL THEMSELVES RHOMALE.
IT’S A BIG DIFFERENCE!
THE TERM ROMANI IS AN ATTEMPT TO CONFUSE PEOPLE WITH THEYR ORIGIN BY PLACING THEM IN ROMA OR ROMANIA.
WHICH IS THE BIGEST LYE POSSIBLE!
AND AN ATTMPT TO ROB THE IDENTITY OF ITALIANS AND ROMANIANS!
JUST STOP IT!
AND YOU WHO TAKE AND SWALLOW ANYTHING , YOU ARE JUST FOOLES!
FOR A PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED YOU SHOULD NOT LYE FROM THE BEGINNING!
you rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[...] Despite the immense contribution by the Roma Gypsies to European culture and life. [...]
यूनान-ओ-मीस्र-ओ रूमा, सब मीट गए जहाँ से, अब तक मगर है बाक़ी, नाम ओ नीशान हमारा,
कुछ बात है के हस्ती,मीटती नहीं हमारी, सदीओं रहा है दुश्मन, दौर ऐ ज़माना हमारा
Never mind, this too shall pass.
and Iqbal then said,
Saare jahaan se Achchaa pakistan hamaraa.
A good right up.
Anyways Liberty loving human cannot support man made dividing boundaries.
Nationalism is not above Humanism, Individualism.
The facts are …
Allama Iqbal wrote an epochal book … Taraana-e-hind … circa 1905 …
In 1907, under the ‘guidance’ of a ‘Western’ Islamic ’scholar’ Sir Thomas Arnold, he went for an extended ‘education’ to England (the West … again) …He came back ‘transformed’ – and supported a Pakistan idea, as an autonomous region of India.
His words were …
Saare Jahaan se achcha Hindustan hamara …
[...] like Romani Gypsy and Australian aboriginal children were taken away from their parents, Red Indian children were also [...]
[...] the low income levels. Fancy theory apart, to my mind, it is the ‘sword fatigue’ in response to constant exposure by Western Governments (to which they are exposed) which causes this low optimism. Possibly related posts: (automatically [...]
[...] a 100 years later, the European persecution of the Roma Gypsies began in full [...]
you keep talking about the “so called modern west” but most gypsies live in poor eastern European countries such as Romania.
By the way the gypsies never claimed they were from India, they claimed they were from Egypt…and many i have come across don’t accept the idea that they came from India.
Is Eastern Europe not a apart of the West? Maybe you differentiating between Western Europe and Eastern Europe. But both the Eastern and Western Europe are part of the West … is it not?
Reg. the origin of the Roma Gyspies … If you are happy with the Egyptian root theory, be my guest. If you believe that Roma Gypsies are not from India, so be it. Don’t worry, be happy.
Hello, thank you for the informative articles on the disporia of the Gypsie peoples. I have recently had my Autosmal DNA and the results are amazing…East Indian (which we expected). What I did not expect was a high ancestry result of Aboriginal Australian.
Your information here hass been invaluable to our research, thank you.
[...] – like the false apologies, made or not made, after the genocide of Jews, Native Americans, or the Roma Gypsies or the Australian [...]
[...] Like the many false apologies, made or not made, after the genocide of Jews, Native Americans, or the Roma Gypsies or the Australian aborigines, and then get on with [...]
[...] a 100 years after the Hussite Wars, the European persecution of the Roma Gypsies began in full earnest. And during WW2, the Vatican joined with the Nazi collaborators, the [...]
[...] the immense contribution by the Roma Gypsies to European culture and life. Is it because: [...]
[...] the immense contribution by the Roma Gypsies to European culture and life. Is it because: [...]